Say no to college?!

[Juniper]

Pasted my reply from Facebook.

Source

Firstly, I think it's hilarious that there are two college ads at the top of the page before even getting to the article. And Secondly, while the article has some very good points, I think it also encourages a lot of reckless decision making. Plus, points 5 and 6 contradict each other in some ways. I agree that there are alternatives to being successful in life without a college education however one needs to think real hard and do RESEARCH on whether college (and more importantly WHICH college) is right for them.

[Ophidia]

Re: Say no to college?!

I think it really depends on which field you're going in to. My Associates degree means absolutely nothing in terms of hireability - practical certifications are what employers look for when it comes to computer tech work. Similarly, my best friend owes over $100k for a Masters in English. She's a teacher's aide, but is more like a 'professional student'.

If I wanted to go into the medical field, education is everything. You're just not going to be allowed to get the practical experience as a self-taught web surfer as you are as an intern. Unless you get some really trusting volunteers or want to spend a few years dissecting family pets.

[Taliesyn]

Re: Say no to college?!

My opinion? if you know what you want, then college can be a great thing. if you are just "going to get core classes out of the way" it's a waste of time. I mean, if you know you want ot be a molecular biologist, then you can bend every class you take to uses in molecular biology, and really get something out of school. I found that instead of studing western medicine, It would be a better fit for me to do massage therapy, so here i am. 6 months of school, 5 years exaperience and 40 grand a year. for a price of 10 grand of school. a good return. and i am using everything i studied every day.

[Jembru]

Re: Say no to college?!

My degree is pretty useless. I did zoology and while animal science has been a lifelong passion, so it's nice to be qualified in that area, most zoologists are self-funded. Basically, it's a field reserved for the wealthy who have the money behind them to fund research etc.

I did myself absolutely no favours in moving abroad. Although I would never have got a work visa without a degree, so it helped me that way, when I returned to the UK, I was no longer fresh out of university so wasn't the kind of graduate that companies were looking for to train. By the time I decided to return to Japan, most the big language schools had gone bust and closed. The jet scheme only employs for 2 years max, thus thrusting me back to where I started, and although I got a job with another company, my CRB didn't arrive intime for me to start, so my job went to someone else. They told me not to apply again as they only consider applicants once, no matter why they missed out. Needless to say I was crushed.

Now, there just aren't any jobs anyway and there is no way, after 9 years, two of which weren't spent in the UK, that anyone would consider employing me as a graduate. No one told me my degree would be a waste of money. If I could go back in time, I'd do somethinmg more vocational. Well, I have a TEFL but most employers I've spoken to, don't take the TEFL very seriously. What little work I was offered in Germany, was purely on my previous teaching experience.

At least my highest paid position was outside the UK so I never had money creamed off me to pay my student loan! Sadly, I now earn enough to start paying it back. This is debt that I doubt I'll ever pay off (it is wiped when you retire in the UK, so if you never earn enough, you never have to pay it back), so I kinda begrudge having the money taken off me, for a useless piece of paper that I worked my ass off for.

Sorry... Was this not the rant thread?

[DanieMarie]

Re: Say no to college?!

I've found the exact opposite...I was really worried that my time sort of humming around and floating from job to job would be a problem, but since half of Berlin does that, it's really not. In Berlin, so many people do years abroad that it's kind of a problem if you haven't...some people complain that they want you to have a degree, work experience, experience living in another country, speak 3+ languages and travel to get work in Berlin. I don't know if -all- of that is true (I only speak 2 languages and basic french) but I find that the older I get and the more I've done the above, the easier it is for me to find work.
In Germany, they're really big on qualifications. Unless you want to work retail, you need a degree. And if you don't get a masters, law degree or a doctorate, you're still fairly limited in how far you can go in your job. I think it's changing a bit in Berlin because there are so many startups, and I know a few people who didn't go to university who are in management jobs in that scene. But it's still more or less the case that you need to go. It's a big reason I went back to university. I only had an associates (in music at that) and that wasn't taken seriously at all. I don't regret doing it though. A LOT of people in Berlin want to do creative work, and it seems that either you're only qualified to do creative work, or only qualified to do business. I'm qualified for both, and when I was looking for marketing jobs, my one year of a creative writing degree (which I'd always considered a total waste of time) was especially an asset in combination with my marketing studies, and music didn't hurt either. In Canada I've actually heard of a lot of people with more general or even business degrees going back to university for a creative associates or certificate, just for something to set them apart in fields like advertising. I kind of did the opposite, but I do find it works.

If you don't go to university in Germany, you need to do an apprenticeship. The apprenticeship system here is pretty solid, and it's a big reason why youth unemployment here is so much lower than the rest of Europe. You don't just do them for trades like being an electrician and stuff...you also do them to be a baker, work in hotels, sales, etc. You do it for 2 or 3 years and usually there are a few classes involved, and then that's what you do and you'll likely get a job.

I agree that if you go to university, you need to know what you want to do with it. It gets expensive, even in places where tuition is subsidized by the government. You still have living costs and stuff like that. I had a really great teacher in high school who said 'if you don't know what you want to do, spend the money you'd spend on university and go travel'. That was wise advice, I think.

If you want to go to uni just to get the piece of paper, you need to think about that because more people have degrees than in the past, and it doesn't guarantee you a job. You need to think about whether or not what you would like to do involves a bachelors (my brother, for example, is an industrial technician and went to trades college and did apprenticeships instead, and is much happier with his job than if he did the uni route), what you want to do and how your degree will help you, and you need to think about building up work experience as well. Also, Berlin isn't the only place that appreciates life experience. Where I'm from in Canada they also like it if you've lived abroad or extensively travelled, and if you speak more than one language it's an asset, so if you live somewhere like that you might also want to consider doing a semester abroad, a working holiday visa, or something like that.

[kijani]

Re: Say no to college?!

My degree is in Japanese. I have a year left and owe something like 60k already. I have a minor in Linguistics, but even with only three semesters left (one summer semester), I am considering walking away, because even though I know what I want to do, I can't see the merit in stressing myself out anymore and spending money that I don't have. I'm trying to hang on and see what happens, but we'll see.

[Caelia]

Re: Say no to college?!

In all honesty I probably shouldn't have gone to college. I thought in the competitive field of arts and whatnot a diploma would help me, but in the end it seems to have screwed me over. I'm now staring down $40K+ without even burger joints expressing interest in me, and that's with working on skills for my degree on my own time. So when I see my classmates who were massive underachievers (and didn't even make half the GPA I did at times) going on with very successful careers I can't help but think I'm just a loser.

That said, I believe college has its place. I believe there are certain careers that behoove the person and public to have that college education, such as the medical field. I do feel, however, the biggest problem with American colleges is the failure to acknowledge the world is more competitive than before due to an increase of college diplomas in the marketplace and do not prepare students accordingly. Some, such as my alma mater, seemingly have become nothing more than a less scammy diploma mill because of it. I literally couldn't perform internships because none were local and would require money I didn't have (literally the only interships listed were in New York and non-paying). Hell, my college's "career center" was nothing more than a watered down monster.com.

[anunitu]

Re: Say no to college?!

I did a little City collage but have relied more on practical hands on learning. I am mostly self taught from reading and digging into what I wanted through personal research. I learned hardware in computers by tearing them down,and then rebuilding them. Same thing as far as programming, digging into how the many programming languages work,and learning Machine language,the basis for every language out there. Every compiler turns your source(C,C++,what ever into machine language(what the actual chip understands))

This has always been my personal approach to learning everything.

This works for me,but I am not sure it would work for everyone. College gives you the paper you need,practical application actually gives you MAD skills...

For me,I think this comes from my time in the service,while they want you to read and pass tests,they also put you through demonstrating you can actually put these learned understanding into practical use.

---------- Post added at 10:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:30 AM ----------

I think I passed this on to my son,he is a programmer,and has not been to collage. I started him out with Computers at age 4,and he took to it very fast.That was back in the early 80's and on a Commodore 64.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Say no to college?!

I'd like to address the points made in the link:

1. It is Obsolete- I don't know about this. First off, the actual information isn't the only thing you learn in university. You also learn how to do formal research, organize your ideas and structure an argument. Second off, while I'm sure the university experience they are describing is true for some programs, it's not true for all. In my business degree program, I only take business courses, and this was true for my friends who went to various business schools in Canada as well. When i took music, I only took music courses. Writing had only one required course in first year and the rest were electives, but I sincerely believe this is because actual writing isn't the only thing that makes you a good writer, and a broader range of knowledge is really important. We were free to choose any courses we wanted as electives.

2. Horrible Job Market- Once again, this depends entirely on where you are. I also don't think it's a reason for writing off university entirely, but rather to be a bit more focused on what you major in and why you want to do it. There are still shortages in a lot of fields despite the economy, and if you find one of those fields interesting and get the specialization to do it, you could have a highly lucrative career. Also, if the job market is horrible for grads, it's not easier without a degree. If people with degrees are waiting tables, where does that leave people without degrees? The economy hasn't been good in Berlin long before the recession...in fact, it's probably better now as Germany has come out stronger, though the economy in Berlin doesn't necessarily reflect the success of the rest of the country. But I can tell you that when everyone had a degree or an apprenticeship of some sorts and I just had an associates (which isn't really recognized as a qualification on its own here, though it does enhance a bachelors), I found the job market to be pretty bleak. Barring retail or waiting tables, there wasn't much I was considered qualified to do, and even then I was competing with people who had degrees, or apprenticeships in sales. I didn't exactly have the savvy I have now to start my own business at that time as well. You don't exactly need business school to start a business, but for those of us who don't find those skills come naturally, MAN does it help.

3. Prohibitive Cost- I'll keep politics out of it and avoid making criticisms, but this level of expense is limited to the US. Yes, university is also expensive in other countries, but not -this- expensive. In Germany you pay student fees of about 1000 Euro a year. In Canada it's a lot more expensive, but still better than that. How expensive it is depends on the province, but in BC where I'm from including tuition and fees it appears to be about $10,000 a year (when I went it was $2,000-$5,000..it went up yearly) At UBC it seems your tuition will run about $8,000-9,000 a year, but if you live on campus you can get pretty cheap living costs, and there are options such as co-op programs (where you alternate paid work and study...you can do these for programs like business and engineering). At Uvic you take 12-15 units per term (I took 12) at a cost of $324.10 (this is the current fee..I just googled it...it was cheaper when I went..a LOT cheaper). There are 2 terms. It's pricy, but the above options for UBC are similar at UVic. They've also opened up Co-op programs for a lot more degrees. You can do them for fine arts even. Canada also issues grants to students. It's not a lot (it's $250 a month for students from low income families and $100 a month for middle income families), but it helps. Loans are also issued by the government, and paying them back still sucks, but at least this keeps out some of the predatory horror stories I've heard about in the US. You also have a lot of other options...there are a LOT of scholarships and bursaries available if you do well in high school. I didn't even try that hard to get any (as in I didn't apply for them, not that I didn't have good grades). In BC, you get something called passport to education, which gets you stamps for each year between grades 10-12. When I went it was if you were in the top 30% of your class and you got $800 if you got all 3 years, but now apparently they consider other things such as effort, work habits, school community, etc, and you get $250 for grades 10 and 11 and $500 for grade 12. You also get a points system for your grade 12 government exams, and if you get enough points, you get a scholarship from the province. I got $1000, but I think they might award more now as tuition has gone up. Anyway, the point is that if you work hard in school, you can get some money towards your studies. I didn't even have a super high average. I didn't get straight As. I got mostly As, but I had some Bs and had an average in the high 80s. There are also University scholarships, which are generously awarded. I didn't apply for them (which was STUPID of me, because I would have definitely got one), but a friend of mine got a UVic scholarship and she had a lower average than I did in high school. People who had higher averages than I did pretty much got their first year paid for by UVic, including residence, so they could use their government scholarships towards second year.

Anyway, my point with all that is, it's expensive and tough to pay back in other places, but you have options and I wouldn't call it 'prohibitive.'

4. Debt Serfdom- see above.

5. Knowledge is Free- See first comment on what you learn at university. Also, a LOT of knowledge is free, but not all knowledge is. There is still a lot of academic knowledge that is only accessible if you pay for it or attend university (and can access their libraries and databases as part of your student fees).

6. Wasted Youth- I don't know anyone who feels they wasted their youth at university, and almost everyone I'm close to went to uni. I know a lot of people. I'm sure some people feel this way, but I don't think it's everyone by a long shot.

7. Limited Life Choices- See comments on cost in other places. Also, while the debt after university does limit some life choices, it also opens up others.

8. Countless Alternatives- Sure, some of these are great options, but university doesn't mean you can't do any of these. I know many people who have done one or several of these things (myself included) and have also gone to university. The combination of those things can actually lead to a very rich resume.

[Ophidia]

Re: Say no to college?!

6. Wasted Youth- I don't know anyone who feels they wasted their youth at university, and almost everyone I'm close to went to uni. I know a lot of people. I'm sure some people feel this way, but I don't think it's everyone by a long shot.

I can see this a little more clearly. It took me 5 years to get a 3-year Associates. I was middle-aged (31), I was working full-time (and had 2 jobs when I started my degree)... and when I started my degree, we were all still using Windows XP and dreading the rumors of Vista. When I finished my degree? We were all bitching about Vista and speculating the issuance of Windows 7. Everything I started out learning became obsolete overnight when the quad-core CPUs hit the open market. Hell, my degree gets a little more obsolete every single day. Which is where 'continuing education' comes into play. I totally feel like I wasted 5 years of my life and $18k in books & tuition.

Of course, if I tried to get my degree now, just 2 years later, at the same community college, I'd be wasting $30k in tuition alone.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Say no to college?!

Most people I know are in their 30s, especially here. None of them feel that way. A few are in sciences and have PhDs and do research jobs, so their degree is highly necessary to their jobs, but a few also did English and Business as well. I don't think it's that I'm young that I don't know many people who share that sentiment, though maybe why I don't feel it myself, though at nearly 28 I don't feel the university I did when I was younger was wasted, even though I did when I was younger; my friends from home are all my age, and here in Berlin I seriously only have 2 close friends younger than me...the rest are all in their 30s (some even approaching 40).

I have a few things to add to my posts as well....While a degree isn't really necessary to creative jobs, I think a lot of creatives don't really think about how one can help them. A creative degree might also not be the answer here (not necessarily). Like, if you do writing, there is a lot of work doing website content, product descriptions, writing copy, etc. It might not be your passion, but it will help pay for the work that is. I found having a marketing degree to be helpful with getting work like that (and I'm not even done my degree yet!) Also, a lot of people I went to music school with work in music, but aside from playing gigs they also teach, write music for commercials, arrange music, work in recording, etc...and studying definitely opens doors for this sort of work. There are lots of jobs related to creative fields that will help pay your way...you just have to be willing to compromise a bit. Not everything you do has to be fascinating and you're not selling out if you do some of the less than 'fun' parts of the job to earn money. I know a lot of older people will agree with this, but I can tell you that I did NOT feel this way at 18.

[Caelia]

Re: Say no to college?!

Most people I know are in their 30s, especially here. None of them feel that way. A few are in sciences and have PhDs and do research jobs, so their degree is highly necessary to their jobs, but a few also did English and Business as well. I don't think it's that I'm young that I don't know many people who share that sentiment, though maybe why I don't feel it myself, though at nearly 28 I don't feel the university I did when I was younger was wasted, even though I did when I was younger; my friends from home are all my age, and here in Berlin I seriously only have 2 close friends younger than me...the rest are all in their 30s (some even approaching 40).

I have a few things to add to my posts as well....While a degree isn't really necessary to creative jobs, I think a lot of creatives don't really think about how one can help them. A creative degree might also not be the answer here (not necessarily). Like, if you do writing, there is a lot of work doing website content, product descriptions, writing copy, etc. It might not be your passion, but it will help pay for the work that is. I found having a marketing degree to be helpful with getting work like that (and I'm not even done my degree yet!) Also, a lot of people I went to music school with work in music, but aside from playing gigs they also teach, write music for commercials, arrange music, work in recording, etc...and studying definitely opens doors for this sort of work. There are lots of jobs related to creative fields that will help pay your way...you just have to be willing to compromise a bit. Not everything you do has to be fascinating and you're not selling out if you do some of the less than 'fun' parts of the job to earn money. I know a lot of older people will agree with this, but I can tell you that I did NOT feel this way at 18.

I think this is where my issue lies with American colleges not keeping up with this. For example, at my college they no longer allow technical writing classes to count towards my degree, yet it is so lucrative for the job market right now Given how I had to fund any schooling either out of financial aid or my own pocket it wasn't a viable choice for me to take the class. Do I regret it? Yes.

I know many of my classmates are like myself and have no qualms with the "side job", but when no one will hire you? Like I said I've applied where I can and haven't been too choosy. Still can't get hired. That gets to be a major problem.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Say no to college?!

I think this is where my issue lies with American colleges not keeping up with this. For example, at my college they no longer allow technical writing classes to count towards my degree, yet it is so lucrative for the job market right now Given how I had to fund any schooling either out of financial aid or my own pocket it wasn't a viable choice for me to take the class. Do I regret it? Yes.

I know many of my classmates are like myself and have no qualms with the "side job", but when no one will hire you? Like I said I've applied where I can and haven't been too choosy. Still can't get hired. That gets to be a major problem.

Yeah I totally understand that. Not saying that it works out for everyone. I actually found my marketing degree more useful in promotional writing than any of my writing stuff (though it's really having both that makes the difference, as most people have one or the other). I think it also depends on where you live. There's a lot of work for website copy here because we have a booming dot com industry here.

[Peri_Dot]

Re: Say no to college?!

Graduate school is necessary for what I want to do, so I had to go to college. My BIL did not go to college and is doing really well for himself, so it really depends on what you want to do with your life. I definitely do not think college is for everyone. I think people should figure out what they want to do before they invest time and money into a college degree, and if there will be jobs on the other end. There is nothing worse than getting an English degree, for example, with the expectation of going into newspaper editing to find out that newspapers are not hiring and going out of business left and right.

[anunitu]

Re: Say no to college?!

One thing I learned from working is,they really don't care that much about your learning,not in the day to day working. What really counts is getting things done on time,and under budget. The bottom line always trumps everything else.