Snowden,Leaks,secret spying and China and russia

[MaskedOne]

Re: Snowden,Leaks,secret spying and China and russia

If Germany doesn't conduct intelligence operations then what precisely does the BND exist for?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesnachrichtendienst

[DanieMarie]

Re: Snowden,Leaks,secret spying and China and russia

If Germany doesn't conduct intelligence operations then what precisely does the BND exist for?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesnachrichtendienst

I'm not saying they don't. I'm certain they do. The amount of requests Google gets to take down content from the German government is really high (check out transparency.org). I'm just saying it hasn't been outed quite so openly as the U.S. has been, and that if they ever were, it would be a sh*tstorm.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Snowden,Leaks,secret spying and China and russia

Spying on people who are one's enemies is one thing. Spying on allies is something else entirely.

And if intelligence cannot tell the difference, well.....

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: Snowden,Leaks,secret spying and China and russia

Spying on people who are one's enemies is one thing. Spying on allies is something else entirely.

And if intelligence cannot tell the difference, well.....

I was never sure why those people are called "intelligence". LOL Seems quite the opposite sometimes.

Seriously, it's all kind of creepy, I mean, I have nothing to hide, but what if some of my opinions are someday illegal and some fool oooops I mean highly skilled intelligence officer, (in case they're reading, wink wink) comes after me??

[Luce]

Re: Snowden,Leaks,secret spying and China and russia

AFAIC Snowden is a traitor, and likely a spy.

If treason is the act of giving tangible aid (ie, information) and comfort to the enemy AND Snowden is a traitor for releasing the information about NSA spying on US citizens to the American public, then...

...The American public is the enemy. QED.

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I look at it this way: I send my taxes in with the expectation that the government will use those taxes to make society function. This would, constitutionally, involve building roads and bridges, providing for the common defense, interstate law enforcement, regulation of commerce, and some level of social safety net so that the poor aren't whacking people over the head for their wallets. All of these things are permitted (and required) under article I of our constitution.

Spying on US citizens, listening to their calls, reading their mail, etc, is specifically forbidden, under both amendment IV and amendment X. Yet that is what I find myself paying the government to do...IE, to spy on me. So I find it very difficult to take a whistle-blower like Snowden and refer to him as a traitor, seeing as what he DID actually do was inform the public what their government is and was illegally doing to them.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Snowden,Leaks,secret spying and China and russia

When Mr P and I argue about this (well, maybe argue isn't the right word, but let's just say it's a lively discussion) it centres around what sort of oath Snowden would have signed for his job, and what he expected from it. Over here in the UK it is the Official Secrets Act.

Once you have signed something like this, are you bound forever? Or only for as long as your conscience allows?

And how do we define a traitor? Because in my book it's not the same as a whistleblower. A traitor gives information secretly to benefit their country's enemies. In this case, I feel Snowden very publicly blew the whistle on what the US was doing to friends, enemies and its own people alike (and I think he took in what the UK was doing too, along the way).

Do I think he did the right thing? Yes, in my heart, I do.

If you have to spy on your allies and friends, then something is seriously wrong somewhere. It makes Nixon's paranoia look positively normal...

[Luce]

Re: Snowden,Leaks,secret spying and China and russia

Once you have signed something like this, are you bound forever? Or only for as long as your conscience allows?

And that, right there, is the question of the year.

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If you have to spy on your allies and friends, then something is seriously wrong somewhere. It makes Nixon's paranoia look positively normal...

Well, I've sort of given up expecting rational behavior from the American government (or Americans in general), but that's because I've become hopelessly cynical.

I gather the UK is in a very similar boat.

[thalassa]

Re: Snowden,Leaks,secret spying and China and russia

Well, I've sort of given up expecting rational behavior from the American government (or Americans in general), but that's because I've become hopelessly cynical.

I gather the UK is in a very similar boat.

Every country does this (and has done this through most of their histories). And if you believe otherwise, you are hopelessly gullible. Heck, if you didn't know what the US was doing until now, then you weren't paying attention--this has been the worst kept secret ever. Personally, I've given up expecting rational behavior from any human, including myself....but I think that knowing what your global neighbor knows, and what threats you face, and what might give you an upper hand, is pretty damn rational. I don't necessarily think its RIGHT, but its definitely RATIONAL.

My problem with Snowden is that I firmly believe that the leaking is a cover for selling information to foreign governments. I base that on his behavior (going to China and the Russia, really?), and that he himself stated that he got this job intentionally for the access it would give him, and that he then used that access to go after information that he didn't have a need-to-know for. Snowden is not a whistle-blower, he's an opportunist. And yeah, as a contractor (also government employees and military members), he is bound to not divulge information that is classified. If he was doing this out of his conviction of right, he'd be willing to go to jail for it.

[Maria de Luna]

Re: Snowden,Leaks,secret spying and China and russia

Every country does this (and has done this through most of their histories). And if you believe otherwise, you are hopelessly gullible. Heck, if you didn't know what the US was doing until now, then you weren't paying attention--this has been the worst kept secret ever. Personally, I've given up expecting rational behavior from any human, including myself....but I think that knowing what your global neighbor knows, and what threats you face, and what might give you an upper hand, is pretty damn rational. I don't necessarily think its RIGHT, but its definitely RATIONAL.

My problem with Snowden is that I firmly believe that the leaking is a cover for selling information to foreign governments. I base that on his behavior (going to China and the Russia, really?), and that he himself stated that he got this job intentionally for the access it would give him, and that he then used that access to go after information that he didn't have a need-to-know for. Snowden is not a whistle-blower, he's an opportunist. And yeah, as a contractor (also government employees and military members), he is bound to not divulge information that is classified. If he was doing this out of his conviction of right, he'd be willing to go to jail for it.

This is sorta the thing... He needs to stand trial. Investigation needs to be done, and a proper conviction or acquital be made. He is public enough at this point that if he came back to the US and "disappeared" people would be calling for blood... He needs a proper trial.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Snowden,Leaks,secret spying and China and russia

Every country does this (and has done this through most of their histories). And if you believe otherwise, you are hopelessly gullible. Heck, if you didn't know what the US was doing until now, then you weren't paying attention--this has been the worst kept secret ever. Personally, I've given up expecting rational behavior from any human, including myself....but I think that knowing what your global neighbor knows, and what threats you face, and what might give you an upper hand, is pretty damn rational. I don't necessarily think its RIGHT, but its definitely RATIONAL.

But there's the rub.... if we ALL KNOW what's happening... then why the fuss about Snowden going public?

[thalassa]

Re: Snowden,Leaks,secret spying and China and russia

But there's the rub.... if we ALL KNOW what's happening... then why the fuss about Snowden going public?

Because he went public. Up until now, its been a "wink, wink; nudge, nudge" sort of thing. Most people don't pay attention to the news, and even among the people that do, most of them don't remember if for more than 5 minutes.

Or, maybe its because we are bored...its easy to play "big, bad gub'ment", and the US was already in a "cover-up" media blitz over (manufactured) "controversies". Governments are completely and utterly made up of people. Governements don't do anything--people do. And WE let our governments do this stuff because (as long as we don't see it on TV) we can easily ignore it.

People just like you and me and that smelly dude over there don't want to blame themselves for their part in it--this stuff has been all over the news for years if anyone had really cared about it. No one wants to blame that fact that the majority of people (56% in the US) see this as "not that big of a deal" if its what it means to stay safer. And now, globally, its so easy to say "look at what the US is doing!!"...that way no one has to confront the idea that their government (made up of people just like them) do the same thing. No one cared until they were actually confronted with the idea that they are actually being spied upon. Personally, it seems a little bit too late for all this false outrage (I stopped caring about it over a decade ago when I realized no one else did--I have better things to spend my time on...sad perhaps, but true)

From 2006
The ADVISE program, an article from 2010
Onyx--the Swiss communications interception program
ECHELON (a cold war, multi-nation program)
Germany gets our info, and does their own spying
German computer spying (2011)
Canadian Naval Officer spying for Russia
China spys on Russia
Ecuador, already a hypocrite on half a dozen other things, probably spies on everyone too

TBH, this isn't even the tip of the ice berg. And, given that everyone is doing it, and going to continue to do it, and won't (no matter how many treaties there are) ever give it up....I'm ambivalent about it. I don't think its right, but I think there are far, far more wrong things to be angry about that actually have some effect on my life and the life of my family.

I give two weeks until after Snowden is captured, and the majority of people will have returned to their everyday obsession of which pop star is diddling the other.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Snowden,Leaks,secret spying and China and russia

[I]
I give two weeks until after Snowden is captured, and the majority of people will have returned to their everyday obsession of which pop star is diddling the other.

Maybe not even two weeks

[thalassa]

Re: Snowden,Leaks,secret spying and China and russia

Maybe not even two weeks

Lol, sometimes I try to be optimistic...

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Snowden,Leaks,secret spying and China and russia

I give two weeks until after Snowden is captured, and the majority of people will have returned to their everyday obsession of which pop star is diddling the other.

Do you have a current list of who's diddling who?

I'd like to get an early start, clipping pictures and photoshopping...






(Sorry - back to serious discussion)