Question on the circle

[shebani]

Hello all, I am coming up with some questions here and there, I am in the process of trying to absorb things, reading books, blogs, threads, watching videos. I watched a very neat video that seemed to generally draw good opinions. In this video it described getting started alchemically, the basics I guess, items to acquire such as mortar & pestle. (I found a beautiful granite one I loved that called right to me). This instruction really interested me, also partly because I have some long term health situations- one mainly that involves inflammation in the body that I am constantly fighting. The herbs mentioned in this instruction, some of these had anti-inflammatory properties in addition to some having anti-viral/anti-biotic properties. This was how to make 'elixers,' I understand called tinctures, if not made by an alchemist. Please forgive me if I am using terms incorrectly, there is so much to learn here.
So I wondered if I could run some of my questions by you good folks now and then as they come to me? One main question in this area would be, is there any way to make the elixer dangerous to the health? This instruction involved grinding and heating, repeated until you reached the point where it is entirely turned white.
Are there any books you recommend for the beginner in this area? I have a great deal of plant experience, I used to work in greenhouses and landscape, but I have no experience in using these as medicine, only herbs for use in food.

Another question that came to me was regarding the circle. This might seem silly, but does the circle represent 'the egg', such as representing being inside the egg? Does the circle metaphorically extend around you in this shape and be said to 'enclose' you?

[Rowanwood]

Re: Question on the circle

First, don't take stuff if you don't know what you are doing. Herbs are medicine and can also be poison. I wouldn't feel comfortable offering any suggestions there if you plan to ingest anything. If you are just using the herbs for spellworking, then the amount of time you use to process them and how you do so is dependent on how long you need to focus your intent. Spells are primarily about your intentions and the herbs are the props and catalyst for that.

The circle varies a lot from practice to practice, but I always thought of it as a sphere rather than a 2 dimensional circle. It is usually intended either as protection, to create a sacred space or to contain energy until it was ready to release.

[shebani]

Re: Question on the circle

Ok thank you Rowanwood. I would like to see at some point about using the herbs for healing/medicine later down the road when I learn what I am doing. Another video I watched involved just making the tincture solution- no heating.

That helps about the circle, this is what I had in my mind, I probably wasn't able to express what I mean, I wondered if it basically represented being inside of an egg shape, and it seems it does. The reason I mention this is that I read most every ancient religious text that I can, hopefully all of the at some point. But many times there are ideas of creation where the original or first being 'hatched' out of an egg, so this could be described as a sacred space or maybe the original sacred space, like the womb is spoken of sometimes, same idea of containing energy or life until ready to be released.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Question on the circle

One main question in this area would be, is there any way to make the elixer dangerous to the health?

Yes. Be careful - if there is any toxicity in the herbs you are using at all, or you have an allergic reaction of some kind to any of the ingredients, remember that you are making a concentrated solution. Any bad reaction will be much worse than using the raw ingredients in, say, a tea.

Also, do beware. Many classical Alchemical "remedies" used metals - lead, antimony, mercury, etc. At one time, these were the best anti-bacterials available - mercury, for instance, was used to treat syphilis well into the twentieth century - but they are also way, way toxic to ingest, or even to work with. Now-a-days there are much better antibiotics available, but you may run into some modern day Alchemists who will tell you that messing with them is safe. It isn't, so be sure to use your head.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean when you refer to "the circle." It could mean a variety of different things, ranging from the Ouroboros, to the "egg." If you can give me a quote or describe the context in which it is referred to, I can give you a better answer.

For some general information on Alchemy, here's a post that you might find useful:

What the Heck is Alchemy?


For some information on elixirs, here's another of my long winded posts:

http://www.paganforum.com/showthread.php?1053-Help-Making-Wet-Potions&highlight=Elixir

A good, general book on Alchemy (despite its unfortunate title) is:

The Complete Idiot's Guide to Alchemy

For a book dealing more specifically with making remedies, try:

Real Alchemy: A Primer of Practical Alchemy

!!! But with that book, you want to heed my warning about working with metals !!!

Best wishes & good luck!

[shebani]

Re: Question on the circle

Thank you Corbin, those were great and so very helpful! I find it so interesting that you had mentioned the egg analogy there right off, makes me feel like I am understanding the concepts a little. Indeed I already encountered what you mention in the videos I watched, and this is what made me ask the question. The instructor was just instructing, bam, do it - make it- and take it - lol. They only were speaking of herbs, not metals, but still I was thinking..hmm..this is pretty nonchalant about just making some concentrated solution and taking it..
On the circle, I had wondered if this meant envisioning being inside an egg type shape, if the drawing of the circle was a representation of this (being inside an egg metaphorically). The texts I can think of are the Gnostic texts and the Dogon of Africa. In the Gnostic the demi-urge is described as having 'hatched' prematurely, and likewise in the Dogon oral tradition that had been recorded, the first single sexed human is said in some of it to have broken out of his egg prematurely (thus introducing all discord and disharmony in the world because of emerging before his prescribed time). Then it is stated that the other 7 beings remained in their eggs, emerged at the correct time, and were born complete and eternal and evolved? Once someone at another discussion board spoke about sitting on the beach and drawing a circle around themselves, the idea of this representing being enclosed in the egg, came to me. I had just wondered if that is indeed what it symbolized. Thanks!

[Rae'ya]

Re: Question on the circle

One main question in this area would be, is there any way to make the elixer dangerous to the health? This instruction involved grinding and heating, repeated until you reached the point where it is entirely turned white.
Are there any books you recommend for the beginner in this area? I have a great deal of plant experience, I used to work in greenhouses and landscape, but I have no experience in using these as medicine, only herbs for use in food.

If you want to take things internally, you should study herbal medicine, not alchemy. In alchemy, the ingestion of herbal formulas is not the primary goal nor technique. Whereas in herbal medicine... that's the whole point. You'll get far better and safer information about the ingestion of herbs if you study the topic that is devoted entirely to that.

However... study it properly. There's a lot of misinformation out there about herbs and 'natural remedies', some of which is harmful. Not all herbs are safe. Not all natural remedies are safe. There are a multitude of factors... dosage, frequency, length of time taken, existing medical conditions... essentially, you can die or cause yourself serious harm if you take the wrong thing or the wrong amount or over the wrong timeframe. Make sure you know exactly what you are doing before you ingest anything from a herbal book, especially if you have a chronic disease. That makes you a special case when it comes to medicinals and there may be contraindications that would make a normally 'safe' herb harmful to you.

Another question that came to me was regarding the circle. This might seem silly, but does the circle represent 'the egg', such as representing being inside the egg? Does the circle metaphorically extend around you in this shape and be said to 'enclose' you?

The Circle represents a lot of different things to a lot of different people. I presume from the rest of your post that you're talking about the circle from an alchemical point of view? I don't know enough about alchemy to really be of much help there, but I can tell you that in general neo-paganism, the Circle is usually a circle and extends around you in a sphere shape. It can be used as a way to actively germinate spellwork, or to simply contain energies until you are ready to release them and keep out energies that you don't want... but it's certainly not limited to those things. What you describe is just one of many things that a Circle can represent and be used for.

In order to really understand what the texts you've read mean by 'the circle', you'll need to research more on those specific cultures or traditions. Neo-pagans are often fond of 'universal symbols', but the reality is much more complex than that. The shape may be the same, but the exact symbolism and usage of the shape will be entirely depending on cultural context. So while I can talk about what the Circle means in my practice, it's not going to match up with what 'the circle' means in the texts you are reading.

[shebani]

Re: Question on the circle

Thank you Rae'ya, I appreciate the advice.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Question on the circle

If you want to take things internally, you should study herbal medicine, not alchemy. In alchemy, the ingestion of herbal formulas is not the primary goal nor technique. ...

... Neo-pagans are often fond of 'universal symbols', but the reality is much more complex than that. The shape may be the same, but the exact symbolism and usage of the shape will be entirely depending on cultural context. So while I can talk about what the Circle means in my practice, it's not going to match up with what 'the circle' means in the texts you are reading.

Rae'ya, your scholarship is always outstanding, and your perceptions are solid gold, but, as a specialist I need to modify what you've said slightly since it is Alchemy specifically what Shebani is asking about. You're not at all wrong here, but there's a bit more to it.

Regarding Alchemical medicine (spagyrics) vs. herbalism:

I, personally, agree with you. If one's specific goal is the production of medicines, and one is not interested in going for the full monty of Alchemical enlightenment, than herbology is probably a better choice.

The "however" comes in, however, in this way - an Alchemist, making medicine, believes there is an occult ("occult" has a fuzzy meaning these days. When an Alchemist uses the term, he/she uses it in it's original, literal sense - "hidden from the eye") aspect which he/she employes that "brings the medicine to life," whereas a herbologist produces a"dead" medicine. The person practicing spagyrics employs intent, meditation, and inner work (hence "hidden from the eye") to transfer life from his/her self to the medicine in order to vivify it.

The Alchemist Paracelsus claimed (loudly and rather rudely) that the true goal of Alchemy is the production of medicine, and all else is bologna. He's in the minority and it would be easy to write him off as a crank - if it weren't for the fact that he was phenomenally important to the history of European Alchemy in that he codified and solidified some of the more slippery concepts.

More to come...

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Regarding Alchemy and universal symbols:

The "first work" in Alchemy is to distill out the "essence" or "essential quality" of whatever one is working with. If one is looking at religious or mythic beliefs, the idea would be that all religious though has, somewhere, deep inside, hidden, some essential quality in common, and this essence can be discovered.

People given to reductionist thinking reduce this idea to the simple idea that "underneath, all religions are the same." Since this is clearly and obviously untrue, it's an easy strawman to set up and knock down.

The idea is actually much more complex. Since, from what you've written, it seemed clear to me that this isn't what you're thinking, I feel comfortable being insulting to those who do by saying "complex ideas don't rest well in simple minds."

A good analogy would be this -

You, Rae'ya, and I are both human (I'm assuming ). Therefor, in some way we share some essential property in common. However, we are not at all the same, not in the way that two spark plugs, made by the same manufacturer to the same specs are interchangeably the same.

The ways in which we differ are absolutely and profoundly important. And yet, we are both essentially human (this is what influenced Carl Jung to develop his idea of the collective unconscious).

To me, this seems like a truth so obvious that it would take willful stupidity to pretend it isn't so. But, whether one accepts it or not, it is a vital (LOL - essential) part of Alchemical thought.

When I read Shebani's comparison of things as different as Gnostic thought and Dagon mythology, my response was "Oh my, very good! Shebani is right on track, and doing good work..."

Shebani, I'm pressed for time right now, and I want to take time to give you good info - I'll be back ASAP to talk about what the egg means in Alchemy. It's kind of tricky to talk about Alchemy on account of everything in Alchemy having multiple meanings depending on the exact context, and I don't want to rush an explanation that would leave you more confused than you were before...

[Rae'ya]

Re: Question on the circle

Rae'ya, your scholarship is always outstanding, and your perceptions are solid gold, but, as a specialist I need to modify what you've said slightly since it is Alchemy specifically what Shebani is asking about. You're not at all wrong here, but there's a bit more to it.

I absolutely defer to your greater knowledge on this particular subject, and appreciate the clarification. lol. Of course... you know that opens you up to having to answer my questions, right?

There is a hole in my knowledge, and I must fill it

I, personally, agree with you. If one's specific goal is the production of medicines, and one is not interested in going for the full monty of Alchemical enlightenment, than herbology is probably a better choice.

The "however" comes in, however, in this way - an Alchemist, making medicine, believes there is an occult ("occult" has a fuzzy meaning these days. When an Alchemist uses the term, he/she uses it in it's original, literal sense - "hidden from the eye") aspect which he/she employes that "brings the medicine to life," whereas a herbologist produces a"dead" medicine. The person practicing spagyrics employs intent, meditation, and inner work (hence "hidden from the eye") to transfer life from his/her self to the medicine in order to vivify it.

The Alchemist Paracelsus claimed (loudly and rather rudely) that the true goal of Alchemy is the production of medicine, and all else is bologna. He's in the minority and it would be easy to write him off as a crank - if it weren't for the fact that he was phenomenally important to the history of European Alchemy in that he codified and solidified some of the more slippery concepts.

I have only a passing knowledge of Alchemy, as I've never practiced it myself, only read about it. I admit I always thought that spagyrics was a means to an end... not an end in itself. In that the production of elixirs for medicine was one part of the process of personal transformation and enlightenment, rather than purely to heal the body. Are there Alchemists who practice just medicine in this sense (aside from the late Paracelsus of course)? Would you consider that to be true Alchemy, if the end goal was not intrinsically linked with transformation and enlightenment?

I suppose it would depend on the fundamental attitude and understanding of the term 'medicine'... it would certainly be possible to feel that medicine was the end goal if your definition of 'medicine' was substances that bring the body into an enlightened state of health. Food for thought.

Regarding Alchemy and universal symbols:

The "first work" in Alchemy is to distill out the "essence" or "essential quality" of whatever one is working with. If one is looking at religious or mythic beliefs, the idea would be that all religious though has, somewhere, deep inside, hidden, some essential quality in common, and this essence can be discovered.

People given to reductionist thinking reduce this idea to the simple idea that "underneath, all religions are the same." Since this is clearly and obviously untrue, it's an easy strawman to set up and knock down.

The idea is actually much more complex. Since, from what you've written, it seemed clear to me that this isn't what you're thinking, I feel comfortable being insulting to those who do by saying "complex ideas don't rest well in simple minds."

A good analogy would be this -

You, Rae'ya, and I are both human (I'm assuming ). Therefor, in some way we share some essential property in common. However, we are not at all the same, not in the way that two spark plugs, made by the same manufacturer to the same specs are interchangeably the same.

The ways in which we differ are absolutely and profoundly important. And yet, we are both essentially human (this is what influenced Carl Jung to develop his idea of the collective unconscious).

To me, this seems like a truth so obvious that it would take willful stupidity to pretend it isn't so. But, whether one accepts it or not, it is a vital (LOL - essential) part of Alchemical thought.

When I read Shebani's comparison of things as different as Gnostic thought and Dagon mythology, my response was "Oh my, very good! Shebani is right on track, and doing good work..."

This makes a great deal of sense, and it's clear that in ignoring the context of the the questions, I've missed the point, to a certain extent. lol. I very much agree with your analogy, and that's what I mean by 'the reality is much more complex'. Sometimes I'm far too cynical... I see people making connections and distilling out common meanings and my brain automatically jumps to neo-pagan universal symbols and core shamanist appropriation. Especially when it seems to be very early on in a person's journey. But sometimes that's an unfair assumption to make; and autopilot responses are not always appropriate to a given context.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Question on the circle

I absolutely defer to your greater knowledge on this particular subject, and appreciate the clarification. lol. Of course... you know that opens you up to having to answer my questions, right?

I will happily babble on about Alchemy for hours (take that as a warning ). Alchemy is one of the few things I take with joyful seriousness. Other things I take joyfully, or seriously, but rarely both at the same time...

I admit I always thought that spagyrics was a means to an end... not an end in itself. In that the production of elixirs for medicine was one part of the process of personal transformation and enlightenment, rather than purely to heal the body. Are there Alchemists who practice just medicine in this sense (aside from the late Paracelsus of course)? Would you consider that to be true Alchemy, if the end goal was not intrinsically linked with transformation and enlightenment?

In the book that I recommend above - Real Alchemy - the author puts "real" in front of "Alchemy" because his contention is that making medicine is what Alchemy is really all about, so, yes, there are.

My feeling is that, if one does the inner work in a real way, the rest comes along with it, but if one follows the procedures (even including the inner work) by route, they are doing something more like chemistry where if you do A and then B you always get C, and that's not Alchemy.

Ask an Alchemist for a straight answer, and he/she will say yes and no at the same time .

The problem is that Alchemy is a HUGE thing, and human understanding is a TINY thing, so to grasp the huge we always have to reduce it to something smaller. While that's necessary for comprehension, if we ignore or forget the fact that we have reduced the huge in order to make it sensible we end up loosing something vital.

[Clive]

Re: Question on the circle

A tincture is simply a solution created by infusing plant materials in high-proof ethyl alcohol. It can be gently (and carefully!) heated in a double-boiler for faster results, or left to infuse cold for a month or so. It's important to research, research, research any and all materials you plan to ingest, what effects they have on health and how they may interact with other medications you take, natural or pharmaceutical.

Not a great deal of Pagans outside of Wicca, in my experience, use Circles, but as my path is very much influenced by Wicca, I enjoy them a great deal. From a mythical standpoint, the Circle is the Universe itself. The Circle is a gift from the Goddess (according to Wicca) that allows us to find Communion with her and the God here in life. The Legend of the Descent of the Goddess says, "In death she teacheth the way to her communion," meaning in death, we are reunited with her totally. Moreover it says, "...and even in this world she teacheth them the mystery of the Magic Circle." The "them" in this passage refers to Witches and other followers of the Divine Feminine, and the word "even" indicates that we need not die in order to know her. She gives us the Circle so that we can have Communion with the Gods in life.

So, in casting a Circle, we are recreating the Creation of the Universe by the Goddess and God. Some schools of thought say the Circle is also a protection against outside forces, but this may be unnecessary or merely a secondary function. What's important in the casting is that you are moving yourself away from the mundane and toward the realm of the Gods. You are creating sacred space where you can find that Communion.

As for the shape of the Circle, many will say it is a sphere rather than a two-dimensional circle, but even this is impractical. If you form the energy into a sphere, your head will poke out of it when you stand near the edge; an egg shape not only prevents this, but the egg is a symbol of the Goddess herself.

[shebani]

Re: Question on the circle

This is so great and so appreciated. Corbin, thank you, you made my soul smile with gratitude. So long now I have tread this course alone. And I know that it is mostly a solitary endeavour. But sometimes I just want to speak about it with others who could understand. I set about, was set on a journey to find out the truth for myself, and that involved questioning and testing everything I had ever known or was ever told, to see how it measured up.
Of course we know that questioning doesn't usually go over well with the establishment. So I have found that I have lost a good number of people along the way, they consider me as becoming 'lost' now, and I need saved, when I couldn't think any differently than this. I feel like I am finally seeing the way and finding it is an incredible journey. Thankfully there have been a couple great individuals who somewhat understand, and didn't put a wall up.
All this time, the thoughts of the being or idea called Thoth always seemed to speak to me, like it was trying to tell me something. So the more I read and began getting into the hermetic things, all these stories I had read and wondered exactly what did they really mean, they started making sense. When I started seeing the alchemical processes, I started seeing those egg stories as describing spirit being encased in matter. Then when I listen to the descriptions of this being a process to separate out that spirit from the matter, and then maybe purify it, and return the two back together? it it explained the meaning of those stories to me, it all being about spirit being enclosed in matter. I think now that this is what it all is about.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Question on the circle

In the book that I recommend above - Real Alchemy - the author puts "real" in front of "Alchemy" because his contention is that making medicine is what Alchemy is really all about, so, yes, there are.

That's the only book on Alchemy that I've read start to finish, albeit several years ago. According to my bookmark, I got halfway through 'The Path of Alchemy' by Mark Stavish before I moved on to other things... and again that would have been a few years ago now. Those are the two titles on my bookshelf, aside from chapters here and there in Ceremonial and Demonolatry texts.

My feeling is that, if one does the inner work in a real way, the rest comes along with it, but if one follows the procedures (even including the inner work) by route, they are doing something more like chemistry where if you do A and then B you always get C, and that's not Alchemy.

That's why it seems to me that using Alchemy purely for spagyric medicines seems to be... kind of missing the point. Following that is that if you are purely looking at herbal medicines, without any of the underlying inner work that Alchemy encourages, then spagyrics is not necessarily the best path to be taking, and you would be doing neither yourself nor the processes any justice. From memory, even in 'Real Alchemy', under-running the laboratory work is the fundamental principles of WHY the mixtures are made in that way (as opposed to the relatively simple herbalism tinctures) as well as the particular combination of the core essences (Salt, Mercury, Sulphur?) and elements. Those fundamental principles are inherent in the process, and if you don't subscribe to the principles then all you are doing is burning plant matter and mixing it with alcohol (I simplify, of course, in order to illustrate the point). Not to mention the potential calamity if you are following a rote process and miss the true significance of Salt etc all.

So while in this case it's purported that the 'true' and only purpose of Alchemy is spagyrics, it's still with the knowledge that 'spagyrics' is quite a different process and holds quite a different significance than 'herbal medicine'. Am I on the right track?

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A tincture is simply a solution created by infusing plant materials in high-proof ethyl alcohol. It can be gently (and carefully!) heated in a double-boiler for faster results, or left to infuse cold for a month or so.

Corbin can correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that alchemical tinctures are a slightly different and more complicated process than the typical herbal tincture. There are usually extra steps in the preparation of the herbal material... a process of calcinating (?calcining... whatever it is that you do when you heat or burn the herbs), distilling and refining the essence of the plant and recombining it into a more balanced and therefore more effective substance. You aren't just infusing the energy or the oils of the plant into the liquid... you are actively improving and evolving the substance beyond what nature has made it.

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All this time, the thoughts of the being or idea called Thoth always seemed to speak to me, like it was trying to tell me something. So the more I read and began getting into the hermetic things, all these stories I had read and wondered exactly what did they really mean, they started making sense. When I started seeing the alchemical processes, I started seeing those egg stories as describing spirit being encased in matter. Then when I listen to the descriptions of this being a process to separate out that spirit from the matter, and then maybe purify it, and return the two back together? it it explained the meaning of those stories to me, it all being about spirit being enclosed in matter. I think now that this is what it all is about.

I have a thought... now I know nothing about the circle or the egg in Alchemy (as I mentioned before)... so this is pure speculation... but...

Thinking about the alchemical principles of Salt, Mercury and Sulphur (aka solid, liquid and spirit/vapor in whichever order it is that they correspond as I can't recall off the top of my head)... and thinking about an actual literal egg... is there a correlation there between the composition of an egg and the three principles? Is it beyond 'spirit encased in matter' and more of a combination of the three principles? What you say about separating the spirit and the matter and bringing it back together makes me think about this as an entire Alchemical process. In an egg, there is a nutrient dense media between the outer shell and the developing embryo... so is there a third principle in this concept of the figurative egg as 'spirit encased in matter'?

[Heka]

Re: Question on the circle

A thought about ingesting things - speak to a doctor to make sure they aren't going to interfere with any existing medications. Chances are you'll get a doc who will tell you not to put anything in your mouth, but you might also get someone who is open to the idea.

But CHECK FIRST!

[shebani]

Re: Question on the circle

I have a thought... now I know nothing about the circle or the egg in Alchemy (as I mentioned before)... so this is pure speculation... but...

Thinking about the alchemical principles of Salt, Mercury and Sulphur (aka solid, liquid and spirit/vapor in whichever order it is that they correspond as I can't recall off the top of my head)... and thinking about an actual literal egg... is there a correlation there between the composition of an egg and the three principles? Is it beyond 'spirit encased in matter' and more of a combination of the three principles? What you say about separating the spirit and the matter and bringing it back together makes me think about this as an entire Alchemical process. In an egg, there is a nutrient dense media between the outer shell and the developing embryo... so is there a third principle in this concept of the figurative egg as 'spirit encased in matter'?

I definitely think so, Rae'ya. Sorry I didn't elaborate further. I think this might be what those stories of prematurely hatching eggs are trying to convey. One thing they have in common is that when hatched premature the resulting being is not complete and causes disharmony. I try to look at it and wonder, what is it that causes the later 'hatching' beings to be complete and harmonious? Is it time, the length of time they were in the egg? Does this imply a time of evolution? What is that really. This would be what the being inside the egg is doing, it is changing and evolving from being unable to handle the conditions outside the egg. A baby chick will live and continue to grow if kept inside the egg and warm enough. But those conditions are not what exist outside of the egg. Only at a certain point can it survive in those different conditions. So the life existing inside the egg is real, but not the larger reality? Is that where we are? We are in conditions that are real to us, but not the larger reality? Our reality only exists sustained by a larger reality? (As above, so below?)
We only think it is, because we have never known any reality outside the egg?

I am rambling here but but trying to somehow say my meaning. Does this imply that we are the un-matured creatures and we were forced out of our egg prematurely? Or we forced ourselves out prematurely? I often wonder if this is the meaning behind the 'eating the forbidden fruit' story. There are stories in Judaism that say they were going to be allowed to 'eat the fruit' of the tree of knowledge, but they did it prematurely, too soon, before it was time or before they were ready. Rambling..lol