Why must I be an adult or have permission to be taught?

[FaithFinder]

It's a generally accepted rule (from what I've heard) that in Wicca/Paganism, in order to mentor or teach someone, you either have to have permission from the parents or they must be an adult. This is frustrating for me because my dad is an atheist (he doesn't care about my religion but we don't have good communication) and I'm a few months from being an adult. I can't get any sort of teacher or mentor and I'm lost and I am /yearning/ for knowledge, I can't stand this lost feeling. But, I digress. I understand the ethical reasons for this decision, but even so...why? I ask because before looking at this path, I was Christian and literally anyone can come in and join and learn. It's the same with Judaism and Islam. Is it just the Abrahamic religions that are this open?

[Medusa]

Re: Why must I be an adult or have permission to be taught?

Well you don't have to wait to learn. You can learn a lot on line and in bookstores for starters. Do some self teaching before you find a mentor. It doesn't have to be black and white.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Why must I be an adult or have permission to be taught?

It's a generally accepted rule (from what I've heard) that in Wicca/Paganism, in order to mentor or teach someone, you either have to have permission from the parents or they must be an adult. This is frustrating for me because my dad is an atheist (he doesn't care about my religion but we don't have good communication) and I'm a few months from being an adult. I can't get any sort of teacher or mentor and I'm lost and I am /yearning/ for knowledge, I can't stand this lost feeling. But, I digress. I understand the ethical reasons for this decision, but even so...why? I ask because before looking at this path, I was Christian and literally anyone can come in and join and learn. It's the same with Judaism and Islam. Is it just the Abrahamic religions that are this open?

Just my personal opinion but I think your conflating mentor and teacher. Speaking just for myself I find many pagans / occultist will assume a mentor role as it places little to no formal responsibility upon us. Figure truthfully what I am typing here is from a mentor role as I choose to add my thoughts and opinions and allow you to take from it what you will. Then by your questions I am then free to chose which items I shall respond to and to what degree of response I shall give.

Yet to take the role of teacher and accept one as an acolyte is a whole different ball game. it, to me anyways, implies I am going to guide you into a given pathway and assume responsibility for what I teach, what I expect you to be able to do or explain. To take responsibility for your actions and how you present what you've learnt and how it is used. In many ways it is to assume guardianship for you while you are the novice and being introduced to the world at large and any entities I shall introduce you to. The teacher in many ways vouching for you and what you shall do with whatever skill, knowledge, actions you shall perform.

It means I as a teacher have to be willing to dedicate time, experience, resources, commitment, dedication to your training even at the expense of my own needs. All things I find a child or even a teenager is incapable of committing to or making such a binding contract. I have to be willing to dedicate the years, yes I said years, that it will take to give you the academic and theoretical bases upon which your practical application and experience shall be created upon.

Figure under the old Wiccan initiation concept you had to undergo a period of upwards of a year or more just to be vetted and found desiring enough to be assigned a teacher and one who would vouch for you. Literally you had to show you were enough of a pain and dedicated enough to give of your time, energy, focus to making what you were able to attend for the observer to decide knowing that it would be even more than that called for.

Regarding Christianity or Abrahamic religions, anyone can talk about it or join in. To come and go as they see fit and commit as much or as little towards it as they desire. Yet to be regarded as a priest, parson, teacher, etc you still had to show yourself worthy and called to be given that responsibility to speak from a position of authority for it. Not just recognized by mankind via some certificate or title that was bestowed upon you. Met many a so called priest, parson, reverend, etc who titled themselves and paid their certificate dues but it didn't make them what they claimed or wanted people to think them as being.

[Jembru]

Re: Why must I be an adult or have permission to be taught?

When I was wiccan, I heard too many horror stories. In fact, I've had the misfortune of meeting people who were into 'wicca' for all the wrong reasons (like.. seeing girls skyclad for example). I was 14 when I first became interested in wicca, and back then, there wasn't nearly so much information available... Fewer books, less of an Internet culture... My dad joined the pagan federation and would give me the Pagan Dawn, which at that time was my main source of information. I had to wait until I was 18 before I could join their 'pagan network' which was a directory of pagans in your particular area.. only then could I fnd a mentor.

It was such an exciting time, and I was glad I'd had to wait. But you know what? I don't think I learnt anything from other people that I couldn't learn online or from books these days. There aren't many 'secrets' left, and those there are, are just dogma attached to specific paths, and nothing you can't be a successful witch/pagan without.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Why must I be an adult or have permission to be taught?

When I was wiccan, I heard too many horror stories. In fact, I've had the misfortune of meeting people who were into 'wicca' for all the wrong reasons (like.. seeing girls skyclad for example). I was 14 when I first became interested in wicca, and back then, there wasn't nearly so much information available... Fewer books, less of an Internet culture... My dad joined the pagan federation and would give me the Pagan Dawn, which at that time was my main source of information. I had to wait until I was 18 before I could join their 'pagan network' which was a directory of pagans in your particular area.. only then could I fnd a mentor.

It was such an exciting time, and I was glad I'd had to wait. But you know what? I don't think I learnt anything from other people that I couldn't learn online or from books these days. There aren't many 'secrets' left, and those there are, are just dogma attached to specific paths, and nothing you can't be a successful witch/pagan without.

Bolded mine.

Just me but your highlighted statement tells me you were not in an initiation based pathway. If you were you'd know the secret's were never about theoretical or academic type issues. The secret's were about experiences and how they guide or change you. But also many times in preparing you for the mind benders and screwers that can shred your reality and leave you flopping and twitching. To use Wicca, that's the difference between outer court stuff and inner court stuff.

I can give you books all day about snipe hunting and holding the bag. Yet only by having all the psychological, emotional, spiritual, ethical and base knowledge's in place can you be left out to wait for the snipe to run and try to catch it. Not only try to catch the snipe but also understand and experience all the things that go with it and how not to surrender to the fear, the shadow and yes even things that go bump in the night.

[Jembru]

Re: Why must I be an adult or have permission to be taught?

Bolded mine.

Just me but your highlighted statement tells me you were not in an initiation based pathway. If you were you'd know the secret's were never about theoretical or academic type issues. The secret's were about experiences and how they guide or change you. But also many times in preparing you for the mind benders and screwers that can shred your reality and leave you flopping and twitching. To use Wicca, that's the difference between outer court stuff and inner court stuff.

I can give you books all day about snipe hunting and holding the bag. Yet only by having all the psychological, emotional, spiritual, ethical and base knowledge's in place can you be left out to wait for the snipe to run and try to catch it. Not only try to catch the snipe but also understand and experience all the things that go with it and how not to surrender to the fear, the shadow and yes even things that go bump in the night.

Are you talking about the Mysteries? It's not a debate I'm interested in getting into, having left wicca, but I have met plenty of solitary witches who were able to access the exact same Mysteries I was guided to. Other than that, the secrets in my coven were things like the true name of goddess and god, sigals, some of our rites and while not secret as such, the order in which we developed through the degrees wasn't really made available to non-initiates, because it just wouldn't be relevant to them.

While it's true the mysteries can't be taught, it is not true that solitaries have no access to them.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Why must I be an adult or have permission to be taught?

Are you talking about the Mysteries? It's not a debate I'm interested in getting into, having left wicca, but I have met plenty of solitary witches who were able to access the exact same Mysteries I was guided to. Other than that, the secrets in my coven were things like the true name of goddess and god, sigals, some of our rites and while not secret as such, the order in which we developed through the degrees wasn't really made available to non-initiates, because it just wouldn't be relevant to them.

While it's true the mysteries can't be taught, it is not true that solitaries have no access to them.

Nope that's all outer court dogma for the most part. Some structure and sequencing granted inner court, even the name of the god and goddess though that changes from lineage to lineage for many it seems. Even the idea of mysteries and how to arrive at them I agree doesn't have to be coven directed as one can arrive at them outside of a coven setting.

But I didn't say mysteries I said secret's though. Any one can be ridden by their god / goddess and be used as a talking stick or hollow bone. Doesn't mean their minds will withstand it depending upon how they are claimed. Sort of the there is more to invoking / evoking than the books speak of, especially when your looking at LHP and RHP coupled to purpose. Of course haven't seen to many Wiccan's that do to great with Spirit Keeper roles either.

- - - Updated - - -

Jembru,

Just wanted to add please don't take this as an attack or belittling you. I just see lot's of people now speaking about how a book can teach you everything. Always reminds me of those who never served in the military saying they know what it's like because they watched a film or read a book. You can read it, learn the acronyms and even how they are used. But it's a whole lot different to walk the walk, talk the talk and actually lace up the boots and step into the grass, mud or water.

[iris]

Re: Why must I be an adult or have permission to be taught?

I don't know about wicca, but I know some other paths... I've never felt the need to seek a teacher, but I understand why some would. however, I doubt that any teacher is going to just give you the information you need. I know it might be frustrating now, but the chance of someone taking you on probably increases if you show your dedication by studying all you can until you are old enough to get a teacher. If you don't mind my asking, how long have you been on a pagan path?

[thalassa]

Re: Why must I be an adult or have permission to be taught?

Its to protect the persons involved from accusations of child abuse, and thats pretty much it. There's no real esoteric reason for it.

[Medusa]

Re: Why must I be an adult or have permission to be taught?

Its to protect the persons involved from accusations of child abuse, and thats pretty much it. There's no real esoteric reason for it.

Awe come on. There is another reason. When you get a mentor you can pretend to belong to some secretz society and be all hoity toity to all the little people who don't know anything about the dark side of the moon.

I'm not even exaggerating. Let's be real (as I am oft to saying) THIS is a big reason we like to belong to secret stuff. I mean if we could get away with all wearing decoder rings we totally would.

[FaithFinder]

Re: Why must I be an adult or have permission to be taught?

First off, I thank all of you guys for replying Monsno_leedra, I see what you mean. I just sort of lumped the two together as, "people who guide you with information", but I agree that there is a difference. As far as learning through books/the internet, I've been doing that, but even still I have unanswered questions and there are just a billion aspects I know nothing about. I have no direction and I feel like having someone to recommend things/share experiences would be insanely helpful. Iris, I learned about Wicca when I was about 12 but I've only started /really/ studying Wicca and Paganism for like...five or six months now. It was always of interest to me, but when I was younger I didn't see my spirituality as important.

[anunitu]

Re: Why must I be an adult or have permission to be taught?

As with any spiritual path,one must shift through a LOT of sand to find the nuggets. What I really mean is you yourself can build your own path with the many parts you find,picking and choosing if you wish.

Nothing is ever really written in stone,unless you yourself create that stone to carry with you.

[nbdy]

Re: Why must I be an adult or have permission to be taught?

I do not agree that working solitary can be an equivalent experience to working with a group; however, much is accomplished only alone, much more than enough to see a person to the 18th birthday at any rate. While every person is unique, I cannot see how some experiences can be appreciated without a lot of maturity, so what is to be gained by trying to open the door that cannot be stepped through? Seriously, just investigating the shadow aspects of your personality that bring you this frustration should keep you busy for a couple of months, and it is something you'll need to do sooner or later anyway. For what it's worth.

[Medusa]

Re: Why must I be an adult or have permission to be taught?

I do not agree that working solitary can be an equivalent experience to working with a group; however, much is accomplished only alone, much more than enough to see a person to the 18th birthday at any rate. While every person is unique, I cannot see how some experiences can be appreciated without a lot of maturity, so what is to be gained by trying to open the door that cannot be stepped through? Seriously, just investigating the shadow aspects of your personality that bring you this frustration should keep you busy for a couple of months, and it is something you'll need to do sooner or later anyway. For what it's worth.

I think both are useful. Solitary and in group. Some things you can only learn solitary. Especially for someone like myself. As a LaVeyan Satanist, our belief system is highly personalized as it is. We are more concerned with the inner knowledge then the outer. So others can't really help us. But in other ways a mentor is good. Especially for things like the history and rituals of someone's religion etc.

[Willow]

Re: Why must I be an adult or have permission to be taught?

Its to protect the persons involved from accusations of child abuse, and thats pretty much it. There's no real esoteric reason for it.

This is my take too. Even if it's not construed as outright child abuse, there's always that line of coming between a parent and their child - i.e. you're not yet an independent adult, therefore you are still under the rules of your parent and they have the legal right to protect you from what they consider to be harmful or threatening. When there's religious/spiritual differences between a parent and their child, bringing in a third party to teach said child aspects of the other belief system is not going to end well for anyone. Most adults (at least responsible adults) realize that they have no right to put that kind of stress into a family, that it's none of their business, and will refrain.

And those that don't respect that individual and their family, and the relationships therein, I wouldn't trust to teach me anyway.