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    Open borders?

    So, this started as an essay for english (>.> boring) but it indeed is an interesting question. What do you think about open or closed borders and all the kind of immigrants? Should they be closed so the government doesn't have any problems anymore with illegal immigrants? Become like the US and control everyone who enters the country? Or open our borders for asylum seekers and refugees? or make border controls?
    Please, just call me Ghost

    I want to be like the moon. A lonely observator of earth, watching the people live, love and die

    Knowledge destroys enemies, too much knowledge makes enemies ~Ghost~

    It doesn't matter how you practice your magick. As long as the thought behind it is clear, it will work

    #2
    Re: Open borders?

    im speaking as a us citizen.. yes we have what they call border patrol. but it doesnt work. we have too many illegals and all they have to do is have a kid here (which medical is paid for by government for them), they suddenly get food stamps and welfare added to their free medical and can no longer be deported. while taxpayers pay to support them. if we opened our borders and made sure that everyone was registered and paying their taxes too. which means controlled open borders, it would be so much better. i have no problem with immigration, i do however have a problem paying taxes to support moochers.
    "Sometimes bad things happen, and theres nothing you can do about it, so why worry?" ~ Timon

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Open borders?

      If semi-closed borders is full of people sneaking in, don't you think open borders are worse?

      It's not as if it's impossible to get here legally. Mind you, I do think we need to fix both ends of the system. Make legal immigration more reasonable BUT with more regulations (must get a job, speak English, etc) and also spend more time enforcing laws regarding illegal immigration.

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Open borders?

        I don't think just anyone should be allowed in. I mean, it's important to allow people asylum and of course it's important to get in skilled immigration (especially when you have a shortage of that skill in your country) but you want to make sure you're not getting anyone in with a criminal record, or that's going to be a drain on the system because they aren't able (or willing) to get a job at some point in the future. In a nutshell, people should be allowed in but there should be checks and balances.

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Open borders?

          an illegal can crash a car and kill a family, they get charged with driving without a liscense and deported. legal they get vehicular manslaughter charges. right now you can come over from europe and pay a fee to become a us citizen... any third worlder that comes over has to go through a rough process that takes years to get through... or live here illegal and babied by the government because essentially illegals are given diplomatic immunity. make it easier and more will accept citizenship. maybe require time served in the military, during that time making sure they are literate and have required communication skills.
          "Sometimes bad things happen, and theres nothing you can do about it, so why worry?" ~ Timon

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Open borders?

            I find America has two hands who are in complete denial of what the each other does. On one hand we want NO ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS here. On the other we USE Them constantly for work we don't want to do. If there were no jobs here (And I mean seriously no jobs) for illegal immigrants, would they still come here? It seems what America wants is the good old days of slaves. And well Hispanics...we don't do slave well.
            Satan is my spirit animal

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Open borders?

              [quote author=DanieMarie link=topic=83.msg370#msg370 date=1286654189]
              I don't think just anyone should be allowed in. I mean, it's important to allow people asylum and of course it's important to get in skilled immigration (especially when you have a shortage of that skill in your country) but you want to make sure you're not getting anyone in with a criminal record, or that's going to be a drain on the system because they aren't able (or willing) to get a job at some point in the future. In a nutshell, people should be allowed in but there should be checks and balances.
              [/quote]

              I agree with this completely - governments have to have some control over borders, in order to maintain the physical and economic security of the country. So completely open borders are out.

              And so are completely closed borders. Anything which people want to do cannot be stopped by physical restraints - even draconian punishments won't work, they'll simply create a thriving and (potentially) violent underground (see drugs, prostitution, prohibition, anti-gambling, anti-fornication, anti-sodomy legislation for colorful examples of this not working. The violence of the underground community tends to rise in proportion to the violence taken by law enforcement to control it).

              That leaves a controlled system of some sort as the only really workable possibility.
              Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Open borders?

                [quote author=Rowanwood link=topic=83.msg367#msg367 date=1286653885]
                It's not as if it's impossible to get here legally. Mind you, I do think we need to fix both ends of the system. Make legal immigration more reasonable BUT with more regulations (must get a job, speak English, etc) and also spend more time enforcing laws regarding illegal immigration.
                [/quote]

                i do agree that immigrants should be able to speak the language they go to. it's should really be something they need to check. If they don't speak the language they can hardly find any work.
                Please, just call me Ghost

                I want to be like the moon. A lonely observator of earth, watching the people live, love and die

                Knowledge destroys enemies, too much knowledge makes enemies ~Ghost~

                It doesn't matter how you practice your magick. As long as the thought behind it is clear, it will work

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Open borders?

                  [quote author=B. de Corbin link=topic=83.msg405#msg405 date=1286657732]
                  [quote author=DanieMarie link=topic=83.msg370#msg370 date=1286654189]
                  I don't think just anyone should be allowed in. I mean, it's important to allow people asylum and of course it's important to get in skilled immigration (especially when you have a shortage of that skill in your country) but you want to make sure you're not getting anyone in with a criminal record, or that's going to be a drain on the system because they aren't able (or willing) to get a job at some point in the future. In a nutshell, people should be allowed in but there should be checks and balances.
                  [/quote]

                  I agree with this completely - governments have to have some control over borders, in order to maintain the physical and economic security of the country. So completely open borders are out.

                  And so are completely closed borders. Anything which people want to do cannot be stopped by physical restraints - even draconian punishments won't work, they'll simply create a thriving and (potentially) violent underground (see drugs, prostitution, prohibition, anti-gambling, anti-fornication, anti-sodomy legislation for colorful examples of this not working. The violence of the underground community tends to rise in proportion to the violence taken by law enforcement to control it).

                  That leaves a controlled system of some sort as the only really workable possibility.
                  [/quote]

                  Totally agreed on this part too.

                  Also (just to the topic in general), I'm seeing a lot of talk right now about not allowing children of illegal immigrants born in the US to have citizenship. This is a TERRIBLE idea that will cause a lot of problems and crime. If they're born in the US, it's not their fault that their parents are illegal immigrants, and it will cause these kids a whole heap of issues if they can't fit into the "system" of the country in which they are born, which is likely the only "home" they've ever known (especially since illegal immigrants don't tend to go home a lot because it may be hard to get back in). In Europe, withholding citizenship to immigrant kids born here (which in the case of Germany, was done for a long time even IF your parents were legal) caused a TON of problems and a lot of the tensions we're seeing today are caused by the lack of integration. Not allowing citizenship to people born in that country is about as poor as an integration policy can get.

                  Re: speaking the language....that really depends. In a LOT of Europe you can still easily get a job if you speak English (as a native language or second language, doesn't matter), whether or not English is an official language of that country. And honestly, not knocking any of these places, but who actually LEARNS something like Dutch or Swiss German or Czech or something unless they're living there (excepting the few cases of people with family from there or studied it in University as some sort of international program). And I know I'm going to hear "well you're probably talking about educated workers going for a specific job with an international company that operates in English", and yes, I am. But the problem is that when you make up these rules, you have to hold them up for EVERYONE. Take Canada for example. Canada makes ALL foreigners take an English (or French) test at their own expense before being granted a visa, and there was a well-publicized case of a woman from the UNITED STATES and her husband from ENGLAND (or maybe it was vice-versa) going there to be an ENGLISH professor at a major university having to jump through hoops to take this stupid test. The woman had a PhD in English and it was her native language! Seriously....If you're going to make up laws regarding language, I think there should be exceptions when you're from a country where that's the official language, or if you're speaking a language that may not be an "official" language of that country but is used often in companies and therefore you'd still be able to find a job (as is the case of Germany and English).

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Open borders?

                    english is a very widely used language in world trade. it also isnt a language based on culture like a lot of other languages. If they want to speak only spanish and come over here thats fine. but they have to know its going to limit how people interact with them and limit their ability to work.
                    "Sometimes bad things happen, and theres nothing you can do about it, so why worry?" ~ Timon

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Open borders?

                      Understandable, but this thread wasn't -just- about the US and I wanted to comment on the "you have to learn the local language thing", especially since one of the people that made that comment is from Europe.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Open borders?

                        yeah I was just commenting from the US perspective. I know its not how things are done elsewhere, but it helps to hear how another country is. however the location makes a big difference. and as for Europe there's a lot of "local" languages.. I would hope they would speak at least one of them and not walk in say speaking Swahili.
                        "Sometimes bad things happen, and theres nothing you can do about it, so why worry?" ~ Timon

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Open borders?

                          LOL yeah I think it only applies to English, and somewhat to French, German, Spanish and Italian.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Open borders?

                            [quote author=Medusa link=topic=83.msg404#msg404 date=1286657461]
                            I find America has two hands who are in complete denial of what the each other does. On one hand we want NO ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS here. On the other we USE Them constantly for work we don't want to do. If there were no jobs here (And I mean seriously no jobs) for illegal immigrants, would they still come here? It seems what America wants is the good old days of slaves. And well Hispanics...we don't do slave well.
                            [/quote]I wish I had enough posts to give karma, just for that post.

                            Its pretty sickening how, one side of the US political spectrum decides to use immigration as a straw man for our real problems. In fact, during our recession, not only is illegal immigration down, but you'd be surprised how many are going back.
                            http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,409221,00.html Yes, its an old story. but since the problems are still there, I find it hard to believe that the "return exodus isn't.

                            You wanna see the results of states and local governments usurping the Constitutional powers of the Federal Government, and specifically in regards to immigration? This is recent news from Virginia, but a bit further along than Arizona.
                            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjHUb9PqysI

                            And when you see the film itself, you learn that the "resolution" was to check the immigration status of everyone who the police so much as pull over for a speeding ticket. So, if I get caught speeding, in Fredericksburg, VA, and I don't have my papers on me, there is a distinct possibility that I might be deported to gods know where when some slackjaw messes up the paperwork.

                            [resists the urge to trip Godwin's Law/ by linking to WWII anti-German Propaganda about "Papers, Please!"]
                            "A true initiation never ends"-Robert Anton Wilson
                            http://www.hermetic.com/crowley
                            "Reality has become a commodity"-Stephen Colbert 1/29/07
                            http://www.chaosmatrix.org/
                            "Sometimes, when you can't breathe, there are people there to breathe for you" - Aesop Rock
                            http://upholdingmaat.wordpress.com

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Open borders?

                              Open borders? No. What would be a great start to fixing the problem would be to amend the law that says that anyone born on US soil is a US citizen. But closed borders? That's lame as well, not to mention probably shooting ourselves in the foot. There are ways to become a citizen legally. Yes, it takes a lot of time, but that's because there are already plenty of people that we have enough trouble housing, finding jobs for, educating, and keeping in good health.

                              This could also have something to do with the fact that the government takes care of everyone. But that's for a different post.
                              No one tells the wind which way to blow.

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