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    #31
    Re: Belief vs. Reason

    Originally posted by Medusa View Post
    People get upset when a person asks for proof because they end up sitting their with rocks in their mouths. I've seen it. )
    Honestly, an atheist asking for "proof" of god sounds exactly like a creationist asking for "proof" of evolution to me. By the way, there is no proof of evolution either, there's just a preponderance of evidence)

    People also use intuition, education, experience, and prejudice every day...I'm not sure that I see that as good evidence that none of those things are ever arrogant either.


    Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
    That was fun... I just went through a whirlwind tour of the proof vs. evidence can o' worms...
    It gets even more fun (I admit, my bias is science-based, specifically at it applies to biology--using the word "proof" was metaphorically beaten out of me long ago)...

    This one reads like an abridged Day One of my Epistemology and Philosophy of Science course



    About me and some stuff that I decided to write about.






    Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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      #32
      Re: Belief vs. Reason

      It's interesting to see how different ideas of "proof" and "evidence" play out in the real world, so let mr point out an interesting place to observe the phenomenon - the Ken Ham/Bill Nye creationism debate.

      Following the debate (which I've watched a few times to make sense of the following), on all the pro-creationist sties, there was a unanimous opinion that Ham won, but on the pro-evolution sites, the opinion was that Nye won.

      Strange.. Two groups viewing the exact same recorded (to allow as much examination as anybody could ask for) event, arriving at two precisely opposite conclusions.

      The solution to this apparent paradox is directly related to ideas of "proof" and "evidence."

      Bill Nye definitely looks harried. He works frantically to lay out the evidence for evolution. Unfortunately, to making the case for evolution requires one to explain a chain of events, with specific details. But, in a formal debate, response are timed. This means that, to respond to Ham, Nye had to work fast... And he looked harried, and he was not able to respond to everything, and so it might appear as if he was having trouble making his case...

      At least in comparison to Ham.

      All Ham had to do was wave a book around and say "here is PROOF," and raise some objections to which Nye had no time to respond adequately.

      Ham had unassailable proof (to a Biblical literalist). Nye had complicated evidence. Who won?

      I think this is the flavor of the things that bother Medusa when she requests either evidence of proof. That flavor is unpleasant to me as well.

      I know this isn't the way all believers think (my lawyer says I have to add that), but there is a definite strain of this nasty infection moving about the US. IMHO - we ignore it at our peril.
      Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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        #33
        Re: Belief vs. Reason

        I thought I'd post a question to atheists that is comparable to the 'proof' question they ask theists...

        Science hinges on the scientific method....the scientific method depends on 2 axioms

        1. Some ideas are more wrong than others.
        2. Our sensory experiences correlate with some sort of external reality.

        Can you prove #2?


        Do you see the problem? It's called solipsism. #2 is the only way that science can bypass it. And, do you know how #2 is rationalized? Like this.....Because there is no reason or evidence available via the scientific method to conclude otherwise. Oh oh....circular logic? In essence, they are saying that, 'Well, we can't disprove it, so....' But this is science?!

        Atheist who trusts in science: Prove your God.
        Theist: Well, there isn't any proof that a God DOESN'T exist, so....
        Atheist: That's not proof! Ha!

        Theist: Prove your consciousness and how it correlates with external reality.
        Atheist: Well, there isn't any proof that it DOESN'T happen, so.....
        Theist: :/

        Then, we can go back to #1.....except....who is more right?

        - - - Updated - - -

        I totally agree with you, B de Corbin....the US, and Canada, even, are being overcome by the nasty bug you mention....scares me to the bone.....

        For me, though, the way new atheists push their own brand of BS just adds to the chill.....
        Allow me to lend a machete to your intellectual thicket. ~ Captain Jack Sparrow

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          #34
          Re: Belief vs. Reason

          I'm an existentialist, existentialism is based on a foundation of solipsism, so I got nothin' for ya there, Cesara, except, maybe, this: Apply Occam's razor.

          Occam's razor doesn't constitute evidence or proof, it doesn't even necessarily lead to truth, but it is useful in thinking clearly...
          Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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            #35
            Re: Belief vs. Reason

            Thal. You know me. I don't ask for proof until someone makes the statement.
            If that bothers a theist, tough.::

            In the real world the scenario is usually an atheist minding their own bussiness. They get approached by a theist to 'invite' them to the true and only way of God. Then the atheist ask you for proof and we all go to hell in a hand basket. If you approach a person with your facts, back it up.

            Normal sane theists (most of the world) will share their faith with you. Will tell you it's the right one for them. That they believe it to be true. They will have a good understanding of their religion and why they believe. You will learn all you need to learn by mere observation of their actions. No need for me to push back with 'prove it' when you aren't shoving 'it's fact' at me. And we all get along.

            But that's not the whole story. Some outspoken ones *like the one today who was at the corner with her 'Jesus is King' sign bugging me at the crosswalk, start babbling stuff to me. Their truth. Their evidence. Their facts. I'm just trying to get across the street to CVS. That's when I push and dare...hold your breath...ask the one simple question that gets their special undies in a twist 'can you prove it?'.

            I'm not backing down on that ever. Because all of you ask for proof daily. Why can't I?
            Satan is my spirit animal

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              #36
              Re: Belief vs. Reason

              Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
              I'm an existentialist, existentialism is based on a foundation of solipsism, so I got nothin' for ya there, Cesara, except, maybe, this: Apply Occam's razor.

              Occam's razor doesn't constitute evidence or proof, it doesn't even necessarily lead to truth, but it is useful in thinking clearly...
              Praise Gawd for #1! (noooo, not THAT #1!....lol)

              Thanks for this, guys.....now THIS is the types of discussions that I have missed!
              Allow me to lend a machete to your intellectual thicket. ~ Captain Jack Sparrow

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                #37
                Re: Belief vs. Reason

                OK,my take...I hope at times I will come too after dieing and some "God or being" hands me some ice cream and says very loudly "Surprise Surprise",BUT I am NOT betting my whole existence on it,like blowing my self up to prove I deserve to "get the virgins" oh and the ice cream.
                Its like roulette ,lucky if you bet right...but it is still "Chance"
                MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




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