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    free speech vs. political correctness

    Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    IMHO - this article describes exactly what Neitzche was pointing out:

    Tolerance and Totalitarianism

    Here is a quote from the article:

    "What may have started out as well-intentioned actions at curbing prejudices and changing thoughts with the goal of making people more tolerant has now morphed into campus thought police attempting to impose totalitarian measures that result in silencing dissent of any kind. The result is the very opposite of what free speech and a college education is all about."

    So - here's the debate item:

    At what point should the line between free speech and PC be drawn - specifically in a college setting, where young minds are subject to all kinds of influences called "educational"?
    Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.


    #2
    Re: free speech vs. political correctness

    Ohhh! A snake pit! I'll jump in....lol.

    This is short as I have kids to get ready for school....but, it should kick things off...

    The line is drawn when those prejudices express in a social or educational environment.

    On trigger warnings:
    Trigger warnings are supposed to be issued to students before readings, classroom lectures, or public talks on such topics as sex, addiction, bullying, suicide, sizeism, ableism, homophobia, transphobia, slut shaming, victim-blaming, and who-knows-what-else, thereby infantilizing students instead of preparing them for the real world where they most assuredly will not be so shielded.
    Thing is, a university's job is to teach, not subject students, unabashedly, to the harsh realities of the world. Trigger warnings are a courtesy.

    On banning speakers:
    Banning speakers includes the recent wave of "disinvitations" of controversial figures after waves of protest from students and faculty. According to the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE), 257 such incidents have occurred since 2000, 111 of which were successful in preventing the invited speakers from delivering their speeches.
    This brings things to a whole new level, and is absolutely a breach of free speech.

    So:

    Trigger warnings? Acceptable, as it doesn't stop the flow of expression.
    Banning Speakers? Not acceptable, as it does stop the flow of expression.
    Allow me to lend a machete to your intellectual thicket. ~ Captain Jack Sparrow

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      #3
      Re: free speech vs. political correctness

      Originally posted by cesara View Post
      Ohhh! A snake pit! I'll jump in....lol.
      One should always practice dancing in a hole just in case one finds one's self in a snake pit...
      Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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        #4
        Re: free speech vs. political correctness

        Originally posted by cesara View Post

        Trigger warnings? Acceptable, as it doesn't stop the flow of expression.
        Banning Speakers? Not acceptable, as it does stop the flow of expression.
        Yeah, but unfortunately, I think the same environment that does trigger warnings is the same environment that breeds banning speakers.

        I think people should use some common sense. If you take a criminal psychology class, pretty sure you are going to talk about shit criminals do. If you take a class on Faulkner, pretty sure you are going to read at least one rape scene and several deaths. If you are going to take a class on US history before 1865, pretty sure you are going to talk about the heinous things people in power do to the powerless. If you don't want to learn about things you wouldn't normally encounter, don't go to college. If you are such a precious flower that you can't handle people with different opinions and ways of expressing them, take online classes. If you seriously have that many issues because your daddy beat you or you were heinously raped or both, that you can't separate your life and deal with it from The Color Purple, then you need to be using your money for therapy, not tuition (and I'm not saying this to be mean or facetious--I'm a both--I'm saying this to be realistic).

        Life doesn't come with trigger warnings...and you can't make a trigger warning for everyone. Talking about rape doesn't bother me as a rape survivor/victim/whatever the eff is fashionable right now...certain lighting bothers me, certain smells bother me...can you trigger warning that? Life should make you uncomfortable. The realities of life should make you upset. They should make you angry. They should make you afraid. They should make you feel. Its proof you are human. We've become way to sheltered, too safe...so safe in fact, we don't even understand how safe we are. You know how I got over being raped and having a daddy that beat me? By reading shit that was worse and realizing that I wasn't alone. By reading how other people coped. By looking at art. By listening to people that made me uncomfortable. If you need a trigger warning, you will never get over whatever was done to you, because you are only avoiding looking into the abyss.

        And that is the point of learning. Of a real college education. Its not about job training...if that is all you want, there are tons of programs for that out there.

        With that being said, a student should never be punished for having to leave or for needing to stop reading or whatever.
        Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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          #5
          Re: free speech vs. political correctness

          I agree with everything you say, Thal...every...last...word.

          That said, the question was how far is too far when it comes to breaching the lines between tolerance and totalitarianism.....what you say is an opinion (and one I totally share!), but a trigger warning doesn't go over that line.
          Allow me to lend a machete to your intellectual thicket. ~ Captain Jack Sparrow

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            #6
            Re: free speech vs. political correctness

            That's much along the lines of my thinking.

            Without confrontation, there won't be growth, just like without resistance, your muscles don't grow.. In fact, they atrophy.

            That doesn't mean it has to be harsh - a speeker who is intentionally rude and insulting is rude and insulting. But exposure to other ideas, when presented properly, expand the mind.

            Likewise, art (literature, cinema, pictures) can - and at least some of it should - make the one who experiences it uncomfortable (did you ever see the movie Seven? That is a fantastic movie, but I've only been able to watch it twice. It makes me ill). People who can't, don't or won't allow themselves to experience a diversity of thought and/or opinion are doing themselves a disservice. And, when they prevent others from experiencing diverse thoughts and opinions, they are doing them a disservice.

            The word "infantilization" is mundo appropriate in this context. Have people actually gotten to that place where they are so delicate that reality (which is often harsh and painful) is too much for them to handle? After the age of 6 or 7, most people have discovered that the world is not all about gummy bears and lollipops.

            The idea that Thalassa put forth - that students shouldn't be penalized when they encounter something they are unable to handle - strikes me as reasonable. There are folks who have suffered bad experiences with which they are not yet ready to deal. But attempts to protect everybody from those things that are overwhelmingly painful to some people are misguided.

            Couple that with the other idea Thalassa expressed - use some sense in where you put yourself - seems like a shining compromise...
            Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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              #7
              Re: free speech vs. political correctness

              My girlfriend did her undergrad in criminology. She took a class on serial killers (I'm not sure if it was a compulsory course). When it came to the reading part she showed up at my door with the book asking me to read it through for her and write down the main notes on each person who was highlighted in the book. I'm not sure why she thought I could stomach the material, but she knew she couldn't. It was a reasonable solution, I suppose. It wasn't like she wanted to be in CSI or anything....she's now a lawyer and teaches law at uni.

              Sometimes, you can't avoid taking certain courses in order to fulfill your grad requirements. Obviously, a trigger warning isn't necessary when the material is blatantly obvious, but sometimes, like in literature, it can hit you by surprise.
              Allow me to lend a machete to your intellectual thicket. ~ Captain Jack Sparrow

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                #8
                Re: free speech vs. political correctness

                In a college setting?
                Well first, I don't think you can learn a thing if you can't step outside of your comfort zone.

                If college students need trigger warnings, I would kick them out of life.

                Let's think back on those college years. You think you didn't personally DO stuff that would require trigger warnings? But you want them for the words you read? Hell no. Suck it up. You can whine about it during your weekends off when you are trying to get consent from some drunk freshman while sitting on a couch outside with red cups strewn about.
                Satan is my spirit animal

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                  #9
                  Re: free speech vs. political correctness

                  To Cesara:

                  Surely you see the problem here?

                  A person who is learning "criminology," but is unable to look at the things a criminal REALY does, in real life, is going to get a poor excuse for an education.

                  A person who chooses to study this subject needs to go into it with his/her eyes wide open. If not, a deeply skewed, idealized, imaginary vision of what criminals actually do is the end result.

                  One can not expect a criminal justice system to be effective if it is constructed/run/conceived by people who chose not to see the world as it actually is, rather than imagining it to be something other than what it is...

                  Maybe I've misunderstood your point here. Perhaps you are saying something different, but it seems (to me) as if you are making the denial of reality acceptable because it makes someone uncomfortable?
                  Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                    #10
                    Re: free speech vs. political correctness

                    Once you start this, where do you draw the line? I'd have told my friend to suck it up...I'm bitchy like that. In fact, I make my kids do stuff that horrify them--making Chickadee watch nature documentaries where things get eaten and making Sharkbait read the same "girl books" as Chickadee (the ones that tell you about periods and stuff). But I've seen people want a trigger warning because a history class talks about colonialism. Are you effing serious? Its a history class. Colonialism is part of history. If you are triggered by that, as a suburban American, you might just be trying to get out of a class.

                    Do I get a trigger warning that a professor might wear a cologne I don't like? Or that the lighting might be the wrong shade? And when someone dips out of a seminar on texting and driving drinking and driving or binge drinking, because there was a trigger warning about some graphic imagery, and then, oops, dies from one of those things and mommy and daddy sue the college...well, whose fault is that? Real triggers aren't so predictable that a label fixes anything...instead, they end up getting used as an excuse to stultify the expansion and deepening of our intellects.

                    I wouldn't have such an issue with this is people were using it for oh, informing veterans with PTSD, rape victims, etc...but (even if its being billed that way)its increasingly looking like its being used to pacify the lowest common denominator. The same college students whose mommy and daddy call the professor and ask why they so mean to little Susie and Johnny...the same students whose mommy and daddy will be calling HR departments to find out why little Bobby and Jenifer aren't getting interviews...

                    This is something we've created for a generation of helicopter parented children.
                    Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                      #11
                      Re: free speech vs. political correctness

                      Exactly Thal. I do actually believe in trigger warnings for people who have seriously traumatic experiences. I get it. I've seen what it does. But I guess we should give all babies their first trigger warning: Guess what?! You die later!

                      meh. We seriously have wimpy humans in this world.
                      Satan is my spirit animal

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                        #12
                        Re: free speech vs. political correctness

                        yup. Agreed. But, I still say that trigger warnings don't cross any lines into totalitarianism like the article is suggesting. *shrugs*

                        - - - Updated - - -

                        B de Corbin, I see how you came to that conclusion, but, just for the record, my friend went into wills and estates, a criminology undergrad was her best shot at law school.
                        Allow me to lend a machete to your intellectual thicket. ~ Captain Jack Sparrow

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                          #13
                          Re: free speech vs. political correctness

                          So, in other words, it didn't matter because the subject she was studying wasn't really the subject she was studying?

                          ???

                          LOL - chop logic is such a hoot...
                          Last edited by B. de Corbin; 22 May 2015, 20:38.
                          Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: free speech vs. political correctness

                            Oh, geez, sorry you feel that way. *bows out*
                            Allow me to lend a machete to your intellectual thicket. ~ Captain Jack Sparrow

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                              #15
                              Re: free speech vs. political correctness

                              Originally posted by cesara View Post
                              Oh, geez, sorry you feel that way. *bows out*
                              Actually, I don't feel that way. I misread it last night. I see what you mean... My mistake.
                              Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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