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Thread: Initiation Question

  1. #11
    Silver Member monsno_leedra's Avatar
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    Re: Initiation Question

    Quote Originally Posted by gelman66 View Post
    Very interesting. The more I find out the more I understand how superficial my knowledge really is.
    Understand I am not Wiccan so my perspective is jaded to a degree. Regarding knowledge I've always assumed about 50 percent of Wicca is revealed and structured in both knowledge, format and to a degree expectation. That also means about 50 percent is also mystical or enlightened knowledge that may or may not ever be provable based upon mundane resources. Perhaps moving into the category of Shared Personal Gnosis (SPG) in that the mystical experience may be close enough that the base elements can be recognized in the experiences of others. Yet they can never be exactly the same so at the same time form a very deep core of Unverifiable / Un-provable Personal Gnosis (UPG) which each practitioner will build their beliefs upon.

    So most of your knowledge that will be used to discuss, in my opinion, will always be the 50 percent that is structured and verifiable. Yet the issue there is that many of those truths will also hinge upon which group you align to and with. So saying ones knowledge is superficial is really not a truth outside of ones own desire to be accepted by or within a certain grouping. It also tends to remove or play down your own personal interests and idea's which greatly color both your UPG and SPG which may or may not align with how the outside group acknowledges or understands the given material.

    So don't sell your knowledge, desire or intent short because it doesn't neatly align with some other groups layout of what they think things should be like.
    I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

  2. #12
    sea witch thalassa's Avatar
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    Re: Initiation Question

    This is probably the best explanation of the degree system in Wicca (her blog is quire good in that regard) that I have come across online (this is very close to the tradition I was initiated in), though its also been related to Jung--first degree being the shadow Self, second being the anima/animus, and third being the entire Self (and I don't think the two are mutually exclusive).
    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

    “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
    ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

    "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
    ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

    "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

    Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible

  3. #13
    Silver Member monsno_leedra's Avatar
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    Re: Initiation Question

    Quote Originally Posted by thalassa View Post
    This is probably the best explanation of the degree system in Wicca (her blog is quire good in that regard) that I have come across online (this is very close to the tradition I was initiated in), though its also been related to Jung--first degree being the shadow Self, second being the anima/animus, and third being the entire Self (and I don't think the two are mutually exclusive).
    I recall when I first started looking into Wicca that there were three degree levels. Yet each level might have various steps one had to complete before they were deemed as having completed the degree. Then it seemed I came across some that had upwards of five levels but also included Mother, Maiden, Crone, Warrior and want to say girl as the prepubescent that differed from Maiden. Then it seemed the more neo it became the more variants of what each level meant and hoped to achieve seemed to change.

    The shadow, the anima / animus and then the total self pretty much matches what I though and was exposed to.
    I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

  4. #14
    Member RowanModig's Avatar
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    Re: Initiation Question

    Thank you all!
    My path has had some bumps recently and I'm just now coming back to the forum and reading through the thread has really helped me.
    (user formerly known as beckly_freckly)

    You are a little soul carrying around a corpse.

  5. #15
    Bronze Member magusphredde's Avatar
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    Re: Initiation Question

    Mrs. P ... just listened to your Tam Campbell interview ... BRILLIANT ...
    I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them ... John Bernard Books


    Indian Chief 'Two Eagles' was asked by a white government official; "You have observed the white man for 90 years. You've seen his wars and his technological advances. You've seen his progress, and the damage he's done."

    The Chief nodded in agreement.

    The official continued; "Considering all these events, in your opinion, where did the white man go wrong?"

    The Chief stared at the government official for over a minute and then calmly replied.. "When white man find land, Indians running it, no taxes, no debt, plenty buffalo, plenty beaver, clean water. Women did all the work, Medicine Man free. Indian man spend all day hunting and fishing; all night having sex."

    Then the chief leaned back and smiled; "Only white man dumb enough to think he could improve system like that."




  6. #16
    Newbie MourningStar1719's Avatar
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    Re: Initiation Question

    If you plan to fulfill a solitary path, then there is a self-initiation process that you can do yourself You basically cast a circle and call upon the deities of your primary pantheon. Meditate over it. DO what you believe is best for you. As with all other matters relating to religion, spirituality, and magick only you can know what is right for you. Go with the flow. See what you can come up with. Join Athena or another helpful deity in your astral temple and have a sort of question and answer session with said deity. They would be much more help than any one here. I promise you that much.

  7. #17
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    Re: Initiation Question

    The process of initiation occurs prior to the ceremony. Initiation is a construct that strips away the lies you have learned to trust and replaces them with new things to learn. The process challenges your physical, mental, and spiritual self to do things that you have no idea that you can do. The final question in the process tells more about what you have learned than any of the tests before it.

    When you join the military you go through boot camp - it is the military version of initiation. While self initiation is possible it would take more self denial and hard work than most people wish to experience.

  8. #18
    sea witch thalassa's Avatar
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    Re: Initiation Question

    IMO: One can self-dedicate, but one cannot self-initiate. By definition, initiation (in this context) is something that is done TO you as a method of bringing you into a group.
    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

    “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
    ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

    "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
    ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

    "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

    Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible

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