Responses to the "Paganism is Outdated" Argument

[sirz345]

Howdy guys! So I've been running into groups of people since I began my movement away from Abrahamic traditions who, when learning of my religion, would quickly come back with "Why do your worship outdated gods?", "Polytheism is archaic.", or any variation of "Paganism is outdated."

So this question has been on my mind for an extremely long time but what I'm wondering is to you guys that have encountered these types of people, what is your response to them or do you just try to ignore them?

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Responses to the "Paganism is Outdated" Argument

Religion isn't a jug of milk, or a jug of wine.

It doesn't get worse with age, or better.

[LearningMan]

Re: Responses to the "Paganism is Outdated" Argument

If those people are members of a religion (especially a theistic one), I would remind them that their religions are aging too. Thousands of years from now, their own god or gods will be what they would call "outdated".

[Seax_Blade]

Re: Responses to the "Paganism is Outdated" Argument

I thought about this specific sort of thing not long ago. I wrote down my thoughts; perhaps I will post them here if I remember to do so later.

[Willow]

Re: Responses to the "Paganism is Outdated" Argument

I generally just tilt my head and raise a brow at their weirdness. The fact that someone would ever confront my beliefs with me in such a disrespectful manner in the first place would basically warrant some weird look and a quick shutting-of-the-door-in-their-face.

But that's just me.

It might be worth throwing in a response pointing out the conversationalist's indication that deities and religions "expire" in the first place being a little atheistic, and then insinuating that whatever gods they follow will similarly age by their own understanding. But those people generally aren't interested in listening, only projecting.

[Seax_Blade]

Re: Responses to the "Paganism is Outdated" Argument

That is an excellent logical point--that their own God/god/gods must expire then, out of necessity.

[Willow]

Re: Responses to the "Paganism is Outdated" Argument

I generally view people with that kind of axe to grind in one of two lights (or both, on occasion):

1. They experienced something in the past they can't quite wrap their head around yet, so they project the situation in various forms onto others in an effort to either avoid looking at their core conflict with it, or they simply pass it off onto someone else so they can relive it and make someone else be the recipient of that kind of treatment instead of themselves (same difference, really).

2. They have some kind of aggression/hostility that they don't properly know how to harness, utilize and disperse of and it bleeds onto other people who are innocent in the matter.

Either way, it's their problem and not yours. Don't feel like you ever have to solve their problems for them, or be their punching bag.

[eightofcups]

Re: Responses to the "Paganism is Outdated" Argument

IMO, Christianity calling Paganism outdated is like the pot calling the kettle black. Also it's worth noting that there are a couple of mainstream religions (Hinduism as an example) that are as old as if not older than Paganism.

Here's what I try to keep in mind when dealing with more zealous Christians; I realize that ultimately they are acting out of fear. They are foremost religion in the Western world and are currently facing a lot of criticism and having a lot of their theology questioned if not outright ripped apart. With the rise of things like science and LGBT rights, Christianity is looking worse and worse. Most kids my age are not fond of Christians, finding their backwards beliefs toward science and the LGBT community to be unbearable, and those who are raised in Christian families most of them have left the faith. More people are leaving Christianity than joining it (I don't even know any Christians that are younger than 30), many of them become atheists and a few convert Paganism and other faiths; the fundamentalists are afraid that they are being "wiped out". In way they right; I don't believe that Christianity is a goner but I do think that Christians that are unable to reconcile their religion with modern science and social progress will. Many Christians; the tolerant, homo-positive, moderate Christians that never really took the Bible literally anyways will be fine, it's only the Bible-thumpers that are afraid. I have felt, from my interactions with them, many of them are genuinely scared of us (us being not only Pagans, but also getting threatened by atheist scientist-types like my boyfriend; although we're scary in two very different ways methinks). People can act very irrationally when they're scared. My boyfriend and I have even gotten physically attacked before because of faith.

That being said, this is nothing more than my own personal observations of life where I live; things may be completely different elsewhere!

[Seax_Blade]

Re: Responses to the "Paganism is Outdated" Argument

Hinduism is said to be the oldest religion in the world--so you'd think that one would consider IT to be outdated. Except that Hinduism is apparently the 3rd biggest religion in the world!

So as I had said, I wrote down some musings from awhile ago. Here they are--I'm not guaranteeing anything great here, lol. Now my angle on this is a bit different from the specific charge of Paganism being outdated, but I was thinking the same sort of thing, and then I go off pondering about faith, Truth, etc--which corresponds a bit with the idea of a Christian saying that a Pagan's beliefs are outdated or wrong. I've thought--why?

"A predicament. Both ways are uncertain, yet one should be so obviously right [Catholocism/Christianity]. It is what I have known. Yet it almost feels wrong. Well maybe not wrong, but it doesn't seem so obviously omnipotent as may be supposed.

What makes it the only right way? What makes other ways wrong? Is it simply like the progression of technology where the new phases out or invalidates the older? But do such intangible, immortal thoughts simply die and become obsolete just like Earthly machines? It does not seem that this is always the case. Sometimes, perhaps, but not out of necessity.

How else would it happen that archaic philosophers state something so applicable to our time, many centuries and ages later, as it was then? Some things just do not change.

Then how does one thing taken on faith at one time become absolute truth out of necessity, and likewise how does something taken on faith at one time get to be considered invalid in the next?

Perhaps, little else will puzzle me like this. To a degree, faith is faith, and Truth is Truth. What is taken on faith cannot absolutely be Truth because then there would be no necessity for faith. Some speak of that which they have faith in, as if it is the only truth. Indeed they acknowledge that their faith is Truth. Yet this is not necessarily correct.

An objection may be, rightfully so, that there must be a real Truth out there, and so if one group with their belief believes so deeply that it is the ultimate truth, and "it" is indeed the one Truth, then they were the only correct ones. Others would be invalid.

But this has two advantages, namely hindsight within the scenario and in fact being a scenario, where the Truth is actually known. We do not know the Truth. Many claim that they do, but how can they? The truth is desirable, personally. The Truth is desirable, personally. But hardly can I consider one belief absolutely superior and righteous, and others misguided or unenlightened, when these very terms require knowledge of what the ultimate benchmark, Truth, is.

There is a very necessary question that must be considered. If the Truth, finding out what it is, is a desirable goal, but assertion of any one potential truth is to be avoided, then how can Truth be found? How to go about it is an excellent question.

Maybe the answer to what Truth is, is not about asserting any one single viewpoint as the one out of necessity correct and valid. It may be about the consideration of all, in fellowship. Could the real Truth be about the joining of potential truths?"

So yeah, while I doubt that you would be able to or want to engage most Christians or just people in general in such a dialogue with such questions and musings, perhaps something I have shared here is worth the post its typed on

[Louisvillian]

Re: Responses to the "Paganism is Outdated" Argument

So this question has been on my mind for an extremely long time but what I'm wondering is to you guys that have encountered these types of people, what is your response to them or do you just try to ignore them?

The only couple of times people have come at me with that sort of opposition was back when I practised Modern Witchcraft. And I always retorted that my religion wasn't archaic, it was modern. And more than that, it was inextricably rooted in Modernist thought. It appealed to me because it was a modern.

Now, if I were asked that question these days, my response would be different. Because now I practise a reconstructed Hellenistic religion.

[Munin-Hugin]

Re: Responses to the "Paganism is Outdated" Argument

I've never encountered this sort of argument. Others? Oh yes, constantly, but not anyone telling me that my gods are outdated. Though, years ago, there was a series of books that, in it;s own way, approached this very concept. Granted, it was a fantasy novel, but sometimes interesting philosophical concepts are raised in such.

In the books, the characters came across a massive, decaying corpse of planet-sized proportions while they were floating through an Astral Plane type void. Upon asking their guide what it was, the response given claimed that it was the corpse of a "dead" god, set adrift to rot because as time progressed, less and less people honored/worshiped the deity until even it's name had been forgotten. Over the following millennia, the body would continue to decompose as even the fragments of the knowledge of it's existence disappeared, until there would at last be nothing. But, if during that time, mortal beings somehow began to remember/believe/worship the deity again, it would begin to recover and eventually once again "live".

As for how I would respond to such, I suppose I would simply say "Gods are not like paisley, or butterfly collars, or spats. They're not something that is to be cast aside when what is acceptable changes. As we are reflections of our gods, so they are reflections of us, and we BOTH change with the times as needs be."

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Responses to the "Paganism is Outdated" Argument

I did a video on Youtube about this just over a year ago:

https://youtu.be/_Xvuhk76Q_8

Hope you find it helpful!

[sirz345]

Re: Responses to the "Paganism is Outdated" Argument

I generally just tilt my head and raise a brow at their weirdness. The fact that someone would ever confront my beliefs with me in such a disrespectful manner in the first place would basically warrant some weird look and a quick shutting-of-the-door-in-their-face.

But that's just me.

It might be worth throwing in a response pointing out the conversationalist's indication that deities and religions "expire" in the first place being a little atheistic, and then insinuating that whatever gods they follow will similarly age by their own understanding. But those people generally aren't interested in listening, only projecting.

Generally the reaction I get is for them to shut me down mid-sentence and continue their rant and how "it's just their opinion." Sometimes they shut me down and continue telling me why they're outdated or call me a "Viking", they generally get quite frustrated when I tell them I embrace that term and thank them for the compliment.

Honestly when they pursue me (follow me on my campus or whatnot), the nearest campus police or city police officer (or any position of similar authority (like a security guard in a store)) is more than happy to stop them and let me walk away while they give them what appears to be a very uncomfortable speech about harassment.

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I think that the reason we are attacked so often but even (arguably) older traditions like Hinduism are left alone is because Hinduism is larger and attacking it will result in backlash, our numbers are nowhere near a size where attacking pagans in general will result in social backlash (I've found pagans, even of separate traditions, tend to help one another out because groupings of the same tradition are rare.) Basically, when (or if) the old faiths experience a large resurgence, this type of problem will go away, but for the mean time I'm kind of just looking for intelligent (which you guys have definitely delivered on) and quick responses to shut down people as not saying anything feels like fleeing to me.

- - - Updated - - -

I did a video on Youtube about this just over a year ago:

https://youtu.be/_Xvuhk76Q_8

Hope you find it helpful!

Thank you! This was quite helpful indeed!

[Riothamus12]

Re: Responses to the "Paganism is Outdated" Argument

To a Christian I would have to say "So says the one with a holy book that hasn't been updated in over a thousand years. We at least have a 2.0 version in many cases." or "If the wisdom of your bible is timeless, then so is the wisdom of the path I follow." To those who speak ill of acknowledging the existence of the Divine, I have a litany of things I'd like to say to them, but that would require a separate thread for ranting and frankly, it's a discussion I'm done having because every point I make is ignored usually and I don't feel like starting fights.

[Seax_Blade]

Re: Responses to the "Paganism is Outdated" Argument

To a Christian I would have to say "So says the one with a holy book that hasn't been updated in over a thousand years.

Modernized translations might be considered "updates."

But yes for one to assume that the wisdom of the path you follow must have expired and be finite, and the wisdom of theirs to never have an expiration or finite nature just seems wonky to me as I'm sure it does to really anyone here. The only way someone like the Christian in this scenario could go is saying that their path is the exception.