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Is there such a thing as an incompetent pagan?

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    Is there such a thing as an incompetent pagan?

    After a decade or so of being an atheist, less than a year ago I decided to take the plunge to paganism. The problem is, after so long without religion, I have trouble figuring out. Am I not reflecting on my beliefs often enough? Is the fact that my ADHD makes it nearly impossible to clear my mind, let alone meditate, screwing me over? Maybe I don't recycle enough? Am I putting too much pressure on myself to get this right? I don't know. I really want this to work since the beliefs seem to click for me, but I suspect that I may be an incompetent pagan.

    What should I do?
    "All right, new rule: no evil laughter before breakfast." -my mother

    #2
    Re: Is there such a thing as an incompetent pagan?

    I'm going to go for the tough love approach here, but you're only incompetent at a belief if you believe you are. I'm an atheist and a pagan. I don't feel incompetent.

    I don't reflect on anything. I'd like to, I try to, but at the end of the day, I'm happier occupying my thoughts with other things.

    You got this.


    Mostly art.

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      #3
      Re: Is there such a thing as an incompetent pagan?

      Originally posted by volcaniclastic View Post
      I'm going to go for the tough love approach here, but you're only incompetent at a belief if you believe you are. I'm an atheist and a pagan. I don't feel incompetent.

      I don't reflect on anything. I'd like to, I try to, but at the end of the day, I'm happier occupying my thoughts with other things.

      You got this.
      I'm not sure where this pressure to get things right came from. Well, I have an idea, but that's a tale for another time. Anyway, I've never really thought about incompetence depending on what one believes about themself.

      I don't really think about my beliefs a lot. I think about other things. A variety of other things, sometimes many things in a short span of time because ADHD is a pain in the butt like that. I'm not medicated for it. Anyway, I'll just try not to sweat the small stuff and think about my beliefs whenever I happen to think about them.
      "All right, new rule: no evil laughter before breakfast." -my mother

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        #4
        Re: Is there such a thing as an incompetent pagan?

        I feel the only people who are considered "incompetent" are those who will talk themselves up as some spiritual mastermind, while not doing any rites or rituals themselves. They belittle the people who they think as lesser spiritual beings, and insist they themselves have all the answers. They have never attempted to meditate, they don't try to connect with nature, they just think the idea of paganism, wicca, or their respective sects as "the hip cool thing now adays." Those people who are "more spiritual than yourself" but won't read on the topics, and don't try to do anything for their beliefs.

        If you are trying, and attempting to learn more, then you are not incompetent. What pathway do you follow? Have you set out to please your gods if you have any? If you worry about not recycling enough, change that. I myself do not fully recycle as much as I should, but that doesn't make me a bad, or incompetent pagan. Do you seek knowledge on topics concerning your beliefs? Do you attempt to feel at one with the Earth, or do you shack off that feeling as something lower?

        It all depends. If you believe in yourself, and follow your practices, you are not incompetent. If you seek to learn more, that doesn't make you inexperienced, it just means you are looking to grow. Time and effort are key, one does not simply become an expert over night, but if they continue to sit idle, they will never begin to walk further down their own pathway.
        "In the shade now tall forms are advancing,
        And their wan hands like snowflakes in the moonlight are gleaming;
        They beckon, they whisper, 'Oh! strong armed in valor,
        The pale guests await thee - mead foams in Valhalla.'"
        - Finn's Saga

        http://hoodednorseman.tumblr.com/

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          #5
          Re: Is there such a thing as an incompetent pagan?

          Originally posted by Norse_Angel View Post
          I feel the only people who are considered "incompetent" are those who will talk themselves up as some spiritual mastermind, while not doing any rites or rituals themselves. They belittle the people who they think as lesser spiritual beings, and insist they themselves have all the answers. They have never attempted to meditate, they don't try to connect with nature, they just think the idea of paganism, wicca, or their respective sects as "the hip cool thing now adays." Those people who are "more spiritual than yourself" but won't read on the topics, and don't try to do anything for their beliefs.

          If you are trying, and attempting to learn more, then you are not incompetent. What pathway do you follow? Have you set out to please your gods if you have any? If you worry about not recycling enough, change that. I myself do not fully recycle as much as I should, but that doesn't make me a bad, or incompetent pagan. Do you seek knowledge on topics concerning your beliefs? Do you attempt to feel at one with the Earth, or do you shack off that feeling as something lower?

          It all depends. If you believe in yourself, and follow your practices, you are not incompetent. If you seek to learn more, that doesn't make you inexperienced, it just means you are looking to grow. Time and effort are key, one does not simply become an expert over night, but if they continue to sit idle, they will never begin to walk further down their own pathway.
          So... the only truly incompetent people are hypocrites who look down on others? In a way, that makes sense. I guess all I can do is keep trying and learning and I won't be incompetent? Argh. I haven't slept at all last night. I do think I get it. I'll try to just chill.
          Last edited by Gas Mask; 12 Jun 2015, 03:53.
          "All right, new rule: no evil laughter before breakfast." -my mother

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            #6
            Re: Is there such a thing as an incompetent pagan?

            Same as the Duggars being incompetent Christians. If you go around saying "I believe in xyz, and practice xyz, and am a leader of xyz", and then it comes out that you really aren't, it's worse than some nobody messing up, who never said he was anything special. If you are trusted to work in a bank and rob it, it's hypocrisy. If you are a street criminal and rob that same bank, it's not hypocrisy. It's still the same crime, yes, but it's not ALSO a violation of expectations/promises.

            Not so much about looking down on others, but about looking UP at yourself.
            sigpic
            Can you hear me, Major Tom? I think I love you.

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              #7
              Re: Is there such a thing as an incompetent pagan?

              I tend to believe that incompetent has to be coupled with stupid or dumb. Stupid to me implies a person has the ability to know better, access to material which can educate but elects to ignore it. A dumb person is dumb because they do not know better but can change through education and desire. I suppose taking it to the point where one has willful and stupid incompetence or one was un-willful and dumb incompetence.

              So if you know and willingly can not practice or refuse to practice then it might be incompetence. If you have not found the right method for you but continue to seek and research then un-experienced seems more proper than incompetent in my opinion.
              I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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                #8
                Re: Is there such a thing as an incompetent pagan?

                Originally posted by Gas Mask View Post
                After a decade or so of being an atheist, less than a year ago I decided to take the plunge to paganism. The problem is, after so long without religion, I have trouble figuring out. Am I not reflecting on my beliefs often enough?
                I don't think this is your problem. If anything, maybe you are overthinking things. Especially with your ADHD, maybe you are being too hard on you--this is something that many people with ADHD have an issue with (both borne out from clinical studies and my own experience). Ya'll tend to be very all or nothing...and when one thing isn't as expected, the whole thing tends to be a disappointment. But that's not realisitc to life. And that lesson can take a long time to learn. (I'm not saying this to be hurtful or insulting, I have quite a bit of experience with ADHD in my life and have had the chance to learn quite a bit about taking different strategies to get things done more effectively--this is one of the observations I've had as a challenge to coming up with ways to motivate my husband and my child over the years).


                Is the fact that my ADHD makes it nearly impossible to clear my mind, let alone meditate, screwing me over?
                No, its not! It just means you have to do things differently. My husband (also my mother, brother and my youngest child) has ADHD, so I'm pretty familiar with your challenges here. Even for my (mostly) neurotypical kid (both my daughter and I don't fit enough critera to be diagnosed, but we both score about as high as you can score on every single ADHD clinical inventory without being diagnosed), seated, silent, mind-clearing meditation is a complete no-go (for her) and difficult (for me, and I've been meditating for two decades).

                I'd suggest 2 things---1) Meditation isn't about clearing your mind, its about training your mind. And you can do this. I promise. Probably you are starting too big and too long. Probably you are trying to do the wrong sort of meditations. And probably you are trying to meditate while sitting still. Toss everything you thought you knew about meditation out the window. Make a list of the things that you do that make you feel the most focused and in the moment. In my experience, people with ADHD (whether its combined type, inattentive type, or hyperactive type) have something that they can hyperfocus on. For my husband, its running (or video games). For my mom, its crochet and gardening. For my son, its being in the woods or at the beach, completely in nature and playing with his army guys (also video games). For my daughter, its gymnastics and the beach. For me, its the beach, painting, and swimming. If you have something that you can do and be completely immersed in for more than 15 minutes, you have the ability to focus (and focus doesn't mean you have to sit still--when my son playes video games, he looks like he's a jumping bean). TBH, studies show that the WORST thing you can make a person with ADHD do is "sit still and pay attention" because they end up paying more attention to trying to pay attention that they miss what they are supposed to pay attention to...and now I'm going off on a tangent.

                Anyhow...back to meditation. Depending on what your one thing is, it might be a great way to meditate. Swimming, running, dancing (there's a book called Sweat Your Prayers that is a bit cheesy and definately written in the 90's. but offers some good insight here)...even stuff like doing the dishes and folding clothes can be done meditatively (I don't recommend video games or reading a book though...too much distraction there). Pick something that you know you can do for 15 minutes, and while you are doing it, think about what you are doing and how you are doing it and how you feel when you are doing it. Think about the angle of your hand, or the feel of the muscles moving in your legs, or the blueness of the sky. And when those pesky little distractions--did I turn off the coffee pot? when is recycling day again? oh crud, I forgot to call my mom... When those thoughts come up, the trick isn't to let go of your thoughts and what is in your head, but to embrace it--think each thought through, acknowledge it, and move back to the something you are doing. In your 15 minutes of doing this, if you could hold that focus for 30 seconds, its a success. If you could hold that focus for 3 minutes, its a success. If you could hold that focus for 15 seconds, it was a success. You can't fail at this.

                Over time you will get better, if you keep it up. Set an alarm on your phone or clock or whatever for a time of day when you know you usually have 15 minutes. Maybe (if you are anything like me) you need two alarms. If you miss a day, forgive yourself and try again the next day--don't let your sense of impending failure be your excuse to give up. You will have bad days. It might take you months to practice mindfulness for 5 mintues, and then you have a bad day and spend a week back at 30 seconds. That's still success. Most people don't ever take any time to tune into themselves. Once you get to the point where its easy to tune into yourself and your action (regardless of the lenth of time), practice turning your attention to your breathing--count how long it takes to breathe in and breathe out, visualize your breath moving in and out, visualize your breath as the vehicle by which you bring in something desired and get rid of something you don't like--this right here is the simplest and most effective way to do magic (whether you think magic is something supernatural and without or something natural and within)--one of our members, Mrs. P, has a book called Magic on the Breath that is a lovely read (and whenever I read one of her books, I imagine her voice reading it to me, since she has an awesome accent).

                When you get to the point when you can do this for even 5 minutes, you can pretty much do any guided meditation or guided visualization--there are some great audio and video ones on youtube and other internet sites. When I meditate, I go to the beach, I take my phone and turn off the ringers and all that and put it on hindu, buddhist, or even gregorian chanting (or drumming, etc) on youtube with the headphones in, and practice breathing in and out with the waves...as I breathe, I endeavor to become part of the beach--the sun, the surf, the wind...sometimes it takes me 30 seconds and sometimes I go home sort of frustrated but still somewhat relaxed and recharged after 30 minutes, not having entered "the zone". I can do this in other places, but this is the easiest way for me. Point is, I've been Pagan for over 20 years, and I still have bad days. Forgive yourself when your success is smaller than your ambition.

                2) Meditating doesn't make you Pagan, its not even an essential Pagan skill. After spending all that time talking about how you might be able to meditate, you can have a perfectly fulfilling path for you without it. It is, however, whether one is Pagan, atheist, Christian, or whatever, a useful skill that is good for your health, mentally and physically. BUT, you have to remember this:
                People think the goal of meditation is to empty the mind. It's not about clearing the mind; it's about focusing on one thing. When the mind wanders, the meditation isn't a failure. Our brain is like a wayward puppy, out of control. Catching it and putting it back to the object of focus is the mediation.

                (from Mike Brooks, who is in this article that might be useful)


                Maybe I don't recycle enough? Am I putting too much pressure on myself to get this right? I don't know. I really want this to work since the beliefs seem to click for me, but I suspect that I may be an incompetent pagan.

                What should I do?
                First, what do you think it means to be Pagan? There's no right answer here (though I'd argue that there are some wrong ones floating around in the universe)--when you read everyone's response to your post, they will all be filtered around how they answer this question. We've had any number of discussions and debates about this over the years here.

                Norse_Angel is Heathen, his Paganism is centered around polytheism...V is an atheist, her Paganism is centered around doing stuff in nature, I'm an agnostic pantheist soft-polytheist humanist bioregional witch, my Paganism is about hanging out with my bioregion and literally worshipping the ground I walk on through the guise of a number of minor gods from several pantheons (also the air I breathe, the sun that burns the heck out of me whithough 30 SPF, etc), etc. Paganism can be about the gods, it can be about nature spirits, it can be about ancestor veneration, it can be about Earth Herself, it can be about the entire-universe-as-god, it can be about yourself-as-if-a-god...

                What you think it means to be Pagan--where your Paganism is centered, is what determines whether or not you are "doing it right"...and even then, you have to forgive yourself. A world view isn't a finished product, its something that is continuously evolving by what you experience (and your experiences come from what you do and what you think). For some people those experiences mean praying, meditating, rituals, shrines and altars, spells or divination...for others it means walking at the beach, watching the sunset, or thanking the many forces (including humanity) that it took to bring a meal to your table. And for some its a combination or both or neither...

                Either way, its something you have to figure out on your own.
                Last edited by thalassa; 12 Jun 2015, 06:14.
                Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                sigpic

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                  #9
                  Re: Is there such a thing as an incompetent pagan?

                  Jesus, thal. You should write a book. I don't think I'm ever able to give more than two sentences of advice to anyone. (I will buy your book if you write it)


                  Mostly art.

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                    #10
                    Re: Is there such a thing as an incompetent pagan?

                    Originally posted by volcaniclastic View Post
                    Jesus, thal. You should write a book. I don't think I'm ever able to give more than two sentences of advice to anyone. (I will buy your book if you write it)
                    lol, V!! I love you!!
                    Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                    sigpic

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                      #11
                      Re: Is there such a thing as an incompetent pagan?

                      Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                      lol, V!! I love you!!
                      Also, it was really good advice.


                      Mostly art.

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                        #12
                        Re: Is there such a thing as an incompetent pagan?

                        Big thanks to everyone and their advice. I'll have to think about this, but I think I have a better understanding of just what I need to think about.
                        "All right, new rule: no evil laughter before breakfast." -my mother

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                          #13
                          Re: Is there such a thing as an incompetent pagan?

                          Everything Thallassa said!

                          And a couple thoughts of my own. I do think there is such a thing as an incompetent (fill in the blank). Flaky. Taking on something, being pretty sure you're not going to do it, but hey the fantasy of doing it sounds good, the feeling you get saying "hey, I'm doing this" FEELS good. But...then nothing is done to bring anything to fruition, no attempt, no commitment, just basking in the glow of pretending that one day I'm going to do something.

                          That becomes incompetency at least at the point where we've drawn someone else into our fantasy. When it's just us, it's only us that suffers the effects. But if we've said yes to someone else, or bragged about it to someone else, we've put ourselves into the incompetent zone.

                          If I don't pass myself off as a master at something, then I'm not failing myself or anyone else. If I tell so and so that I'm a master at something, and they ask me to tutor them...then I cancel appts, or make things up and tell them BS while I'm "tutoring" them...that is definitely being incompetent.

                          That being said, personal spirituality isn't a competition. I go through dry spells, times when I am distracted by life, or lazy or illness has sapped me of energy or interest. What helps me is to schedule a practice. Maybe one guided meditation on Friday evening, or to light a candle and say a prayer every morning on waking. Whatever, and do it. Sometimes I fall through on that too, feel paralyzed to do anything.

                          In my tradition, following the Solar calendar of Equinoxes, Solstices, and cross quarters, the year is divided into six week "seasons", and I choose something to focus on, or a spiritual practice for that six week period. I've found that useful in that when I get distracted etc...I can go back to that theme and find SOMETHING related to it. Guided meditation, google search, piece of music (lyrics, lyrics, lyrics!), memory, poem...whatever. And I hang on to the stuff I found in the past, so if I''m stuck and clueless...I can go back to something I've done before, and still be in the game.

                          Or I go online and do a search to see something that has been done or said on the subject by someone else.

                          To go along with Thalassa's amazing suggestions, I have learned the power of Haiku. A short poem, three lines. First line five syllables, second line seven syllables, third line five syllables.
                          I take a few minutes to create a haiku about something happening in my day or spirituality. Doesn't have to be serious, or pithy, or worthy of sharing with anyone else. The small discipline of that has been really helpful to me.

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                            #14
                            Re: Is there such a thing as an incompetent pagan?

                            If you think you are incompetent, chances are, you are not.
                            Just the fact that you ask questions and try to act on your faith in your own fashion shows that you are abundantly comprehending your own practice.
                            There is beauty in darkness for those who dare enter the shadows to embrace it. - John Coughlin

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