Christopaganism

[JackofSpades]

Re: Thoughts on Christo-paganism? Or Christ centered Paganism?

Based on my own experience of mixing Christian stuff with other things:

When I realized I no more fit into framework of classic Christianity, I first felt that I should abandon the Christian-concept entirely and seek for something else. That didn't work out for me. After being so long influenced by Christianity, too much of my symbol universe is related to that religion to just get rid of it in one day. And since my departure with Christianity was peaceful, I had no urgent need to get rid of it. I ended up keeping up my practises and thinking in Christian terms, but just opened the doors, letting other things evolve alongside of it and see what would happen.

I've found out that this has been most constructive approach for myself. I find it important to not mess my head up by going for all-in and trying to re-define and deny everything old overnight. Very likely the outcome of that would be that I would make up subconsiciously something thats practically same stuff with different names. In process of moving away from ones old path, I see it as important thing to not just see startpoint and endpoint between leaving old religion and finding new one. I want to be at peace with the whole process of being religious mutant while being halfway there.

What I'm saying might not be so much about Christo-pagans, but generally about idea of having Christianity-influenced elements in ones new path, whatever that path is. I'm fully aware that everyones story and preferences are different, but I don't think for myself, having Christian twist to my spirituality is something negative, or clinging into old. It's aswell part of my path as are new things I've found since then.

[Piprika]

Christo-Pagan?

Hey guys! Sorry if this is in the wrong post, please move it if it is and I apologize again!

But onward too the question. Can someone explain christo-pagan too me? can that work? I'm assuming yes and I've been wanting to look into more details about how this can happen. I've seen some of these floating around here on the forum, but I was wanting to know if there was any reading material on it? Or the whole 'You can't be a witch and Christian at the same time!' whole thing?

[thalassa]

Re: Christo-Pagan?

Well, that would depend on who you ask...the last time we had this convo was here, and there are a number of answers that pretty much show the range you will find among most Pagans (though you man find that many Pagans are quite vehemently against it, more strongly that you will find it worded here). Also, its been my experience that many Pagans that take issue with it do so from a place of their own issues with Christianity.

Basically though, its a term used by folks that incorporate both Paganism and Christianity into their personal religion and spirituality. Exactly how that is done depends on the person you ask that calls themselves such.

These are the examples I gave in the aforementioned thread:

Probably the most thoughtful reconciliation of the two I've encountered was a small group of people practicing what they called Trinitarian Wicca about 7 years ago or so....I've run into a couple versions of something called Trintarian or Trinity Wicca over the years, but they've not been the same group or teaching (some similarities though). This group practiced in an Eclectic Wiccan ritual style, celebrated the Wheel of the Year (with a slightly different mythology), observed the Wiccan Rede (the short one, and rewrote the long one to better fit their beliefs), but worshiped a sort of unorthodox triune where the Lord is God as the Father (also as the *idea* of creation, and Sky/Heaven), the Lady is the Holy Spirit as the Wisdom of god (Sophia, Shekinah, etc), and Jesus as The Christ and the Divine Child--Logos, or the Word...in which Jesus is more of a demigod...sort of the Ultimate expression of humanity's divinity, and what we should all strive for. They acknowledge the Bible as a historical text and non-literal mythology, as well as a number of apocrypha (including the Gnostic Gospels). Other than that, I know that they taught reincarnation as part of their tradition (which isn't as unusual as some might think among Christians--my grandparents as Christians and they believe in reincarnation, and can even point to numerous passages in the Bible that allude to it with far more rigor than it alludes to the Trinity), in which the "goal" of reincarnation is to achieve the same sort of uber-divine humanity state as Jesus (which they believe has been achieved by a handful of folks, including the Apostles (but not Paul), Mohammed, Buddah, etc.

I've also met a number of "Pagans for Jesus" (as my friend Matt called himself)--basically a sort of pantheistic or non-tradition specific polytheistic, and in one case atheist Pagan that have a Jeffersonian take on Jesus...the New Testament minus the miracles sort of grafted onto their version of Paganism, in which Jesus becomes a sort of...semi-Divine Teacher or almost Ancestor status. And, on the other side, I've known a number of Christians that graft different aspects of Paganism into their practices--I know an Episcopalian that also celebrates a naturalistic Wheel of the Year (which are often associated with various Catholic holy days anyhow) and regards the Holy Spirit in a traditional sort of Trinity as the Divine Feminine...

ETA: a book (I've not read it, but I've read their Paganism intro book and its pretty good)

[anunitu]

Re: Christo-Pagan?

I had wondered also Thal...from my experience the two would not be compatible,BUT if a person can find a way to combine the two,more power to them. I do know Voodoo has parts of catholic along with native beliefs,so it can happen.

I do see a few members that list that as their path,and it would be interesting to hear how the combination works in a practical,day to day manner.

[thalassa]

Re: Christo-Pagan?

This blog post might be of interest on the subject...

I had wondered also Thal...from my experience the two would not be compatible,BUT if a person can find a way to combine the two,more power to them.
.

I was raised in a progressive, liberal Christian tradition with a non-literal interpretation of the Bible, a universalist approach to salvation, a very big box notion of what God is, and a very small list of what was considered "sinful". Per the church I was raised in, there are only 2 commandments that "count", and all that OT stuff that conservative churches like to trot out as "the law" was something that Jesus nullified. We once had a series of sermons where God was refereed to in all female pronouns and the "Our father" was read as the "Our mother..."

The idea of combining Christianity and Paganism into something synchretic and new doesn't seem that odd to me.

[Little Star]

Re: Christo-Pagan?

Mhm. I really think the level of compatibility depends a lot on which parts of each you're interested in. I'm personally of the opinion that almost anything can be blended together if you work at it, but the end result is still going to vary a lot depending on what you put in.

I find my religion becoming increasingly Christo-pagan. I don't find the objection that you can't worship the Christian God alongside other Gods relevant to me, because I'm approaching it from a Kemetic starting-point, and in Egypt it was pretty much de rigeur to talk about any important God as being "the only God" -- without actually prohibiting the worship of others. It's a stock phrase meant to emphasize the God's power, not a literal statement that no other Gods may be worshiped. Contrary to popular belief, even Amarna religion wasn't a strict monotheism.

On the other hand, one of the big stumbling blocks for me has been figuring out how Jesus fits in alongside the Kemetic pantheon. (Even though I'm a soft polytheist, I don't view Him as being basically the same person as Horus or Osiris, as some people do.) It's something that I've only just started to figure out.

My experience though is that most of the time, when people say Christo-pagan, they mean something more like Christian Wicca, which honestly I don't know much about.

Some questions:

What parts of Christianity would you ideally like to have in your religion?
What parts of paganism?
Are there parts of Christianity you definitely don't want to incorporate?
Parts of paganism you don't want to incorporate?

[Piprika]

Re: Christo-Pagan?

Ahh thanks for the helpful insights and such! Thank you Thal, you've always been so helpful!

Little Star, to answer your questions, I was raised Christian, and currently having to go to a Christian church due staying with my mother in law who makes me attend. I started looking into Paganism last year and the path I was working wasn't working out and seemed to be my calling. What parts I'd like would be the whole thing, simply because I feel that would be right.
As for paganism, I would like to see the Holy Trinity as what I would worship.
What parts I wouldn't add, I don't see none I wouldn't. Besides some things I don't view as bad (this would piss off a lot of other Christians obviously)
What parts of paganism I wouldn't want to include would be most obvious rituals and some holidays, because my husband is also Christian and he isn't quite comfortable with me celebrating some things, and I'm trying to make a compromise where we don't always go at each others throat over religion.

What I'm thinking is, I'm a witch because besides being raised Christian, I was also raised by a witch who believed more in the christian faith, so I'm not sure if I phrased it correctly before in my question and if I didn't I apologize again.

Can Christiany have witchcraft combined with it? I know in the bible it says to not suffer a witch, and it'd be counteractive.

[thalassa]

Re: Christo-Pagan?

So...I'm not Christian, and haven't considered myself thus since about 11. Also, I practice witchcraft and don't give a damn what the Bible says about it because the Bible isn't a religious book of laws, IMO. But...I attended church and Sunday school in my family's congregation that I was raised in until I went to college, so some of this I can offer a perspective on, from the (very liberal, very progressive church in a very liberal, very progressive denomination).

(I don't consider myself Christian because I reject the notion of salvation--I don't need to be saved from anything, there is nothing inherently wrong with being human...I don't believe in original sin, or really of sin in general)

Can Christiany have witchcraft combined with it? I know in the bible it says to not suffer a witch, and it'd be counteractive.

Well...that would depend on 3 things that a person has to decide for themselves...

Which translation? How should witchcraft be interpretation in the context of the Bible? And how literally should the Bible be taken in general?

Okay, really 4...what does it mean for Jesus to have fulfilled the law set forth in the OT?

Regarding those 4 questions...

1) So, the origin of "witch" in Exodus whatever the heck the verse is seems to be the KJV. But...the KJV is a pretty sucky version of the Bible. I generally say that you go to the source. If you want to know what the OT says and means, ask a Jewish scholar (or if you can't find one, Google can at least find you a Torah). From what I can best tell (having read various opinions from time to time), the word isn't witch, its maybe best interpreted as sorcerer--less a practitioner of witchcraft and more a practitioner of (interestingly, in the Septuagint--the translation of the Greek translation of the Hebrew I've seen it as poisoner, or as "ye shall not save the life of a sorcerer")...and from what I understand, there are different *types* of magic identified in the Torah, of which this use means something more like a person using witchcraft for maleficent purposes. But, different types of witchcraft are mentioned elsewhere in the Bible...which comes to #2

2) So, the Bible has a lot to say about "witchcraft", specifically, raising the dead, speaking with the dead, speaking with spirits, idolatry, fortune telling, etc. And yet, a lot of very Biblical people do a number of these things (:cough: Jesus :cough. My personal favorite though is Simon Magus--a Samaritain sorcerer that finds Jesus, is baptized, and is chastized...not for his practice of sorcery, but for trying to use money to buy the ability to pass on the Holy Spirit. But this shouldn't be surprising since the Bible is remarkable inconsistent in what it says. Which isn't a big deal, unless you take the Bible as the all-factual, literal Word of God.

3) For me, this is no biggie...I've never (been)* taught that the Bible is the literal Word of God and that it is without inconsistencies or inaccuracies. The Bible is a book written by man, inspired by God. So, there are plenty of POV issues, untrue statements, contradictions, etc... The Bible is sort of like the Constitution--there's a Japanese term that applies to aesthetics, called wabi-sabi. Something that is wabi sabi is imperfect, impermanent, and incomplete...but beautiful none the less (because it is imperfect, impermanent and incomplete)... IMO, any living text (ie, a text that is constantly being read, reread, interpreted, reinterpreted, and reimagined by successive generations, according to their development), is wabi-sabi.

4) I grew up in a denomination that viewed the OT as basically a prequel to the Bible. Its purpose is set the scene for "why Jesus"...sort of like you can appreciate Lord of the Rings without The Hobbit, but you don't have the context for why the heck the ring and the ring-wraiths and why the heck this Gandalf guy puts such stock in Hobbits anyhow. But if Jesus didn't do it or say it, its just sort of filler. Jesus fulfills the OT--meaning that its pretty much not the law anymore. If you use the OT as guidance, its on you, its not a religious law--and in a way, that's bad, because its setting yourself up as being better than God; you are essentially saying that Jesus fulfilling the law wasn't good enough for you. So, unless its explicitly stated in the NT by Jesus as a "command" of some sort, its not a requirement. And if someone other than Jesus talks about it, its at most a suggestion...but more realistically, its a historic perspective of how Jesus' words were perceived when by the early Church.



I'll add to this that my grandma talked to spirits, believed in reincarnation, and was a huge believe in omens...and was one of the most devout Christians I know.



*ETA

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: Christo-Pagan?

Christianity and Paganism are inextricably linked, or at least, most people think so. And any "A" is linked to any "Z"; you just have to find the chain of letters that fall in between them.

[anunitu]

Re: Christo-Pagan?

It is said that Christianity has "Appropriated" many things from Pagan belief. most of the Christian holidays fall on old pagan ones..

[Piprika]

Re: Christo-Pagan?

Again, thank you Thal. I always love reading what you say and how informative you are. Also thank you Hawkfeathers for your input, I do take each one and appreciate them.

I'll keep all this in consideration, glad to hear your POV and what you understand of it, thank you again!

[thalassa]

Re: Christo-Pagan?

You are very welcome!!

[Wardruna]

Re: Christo-Pagan?

I would have to agree with this statement (Thal's). My background was about as much as a stark difference as you can come by; Conservative, traditional Catholic with literal teachings, but even with this I have found my own way & I now have a Panentheistic view of God.. even so, this can be seen as a heathen view in comparison to the Catholic Church, as it states that God is everything, is OF everything, and is also his own being, or entity. Christo-Pagan beliefs would probably be pretty similar if I could guess. I am not very familiar with Wicca or Witchcraft, as compared to my research into the different sects of Northern religions, such as Odinism, but the fact is that someone could definitely be Christian, and incorporate Pagan norms into their daily life. I do it, myself. I literally am wearing an antler pennant with a carved bind-rune I made myself, and yet about 2 feet to my left are prayer cards and statues of Jesus, and Mary. I guess this is very relative to the individual, but yes, one could be an active Christo-Pagan, I would presume.. I'd bet on it actually.

If you would like to do some further reading, look into Panentheism. It's basically a more Judeo-Christian/Religious view of Pantheism (Pantheism is the view that God is everything, and Everything is God.. The universe is of God himself, and cannot be seen as separate. Again, PanENtheism states that everything is within God, and God is ever-present, but that he is also his own being, distinguishable from creation). For a nice example, many Pagan religions are Pantheistic.. I believe if you could draw some personal views from Panentheism, you could possibly be considered a Chriso-Pagan.

[anunitu]

Re: Christo-Pagan?

Hmmm,I am thinking this seems a bit close to home for me. My view of "Deity" is that everything is part of an energy that is reality. In this sense we are all part of said "Deity",though I do not consider myself "Christian". Though this might seem a bit "New Age" I do not consider myself in that space ether. In some circles this is named "The All".

[Wonder]

Re: Christo-Pagan?

It seems to me that people asking for Christo-Paganism is really more about having trouble detaching themselves from the religion they were born and raise into. Not because they still fully believe in it's teachings but for the reason that they want the cake and eat it too. They are willing to explore while still keeping a foot on the treshold. I can understand that, it was also for me very difficult to ''let go'', even when I realized Christianity no longer made sense on intellectual and spiritual levels.

People are free to believe what they want, as long as it doesn't harm others, that's a Pagan motto but to be honest, in my opinion the Bible and Paganism doesn't fit very well together. For one, it prohibits such beliefs, condemned the use of magick, witchcraft ect. So I think you would have to be very selective of it's teachings, while discarding what doesn't fit your beliefs.

I guess the real question is, do you truly believe in the bottom of your heart that Jesus Christ is your savior? If your response is positive, then it is up to you to make things work as it should. No one can really do it for you.