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The female identity in the bible.

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    #31
    Re: The female identity in the bible.

    Originally posted by Azvanna View Post
    So I've been thinking this topic over tonight and in particular why I felt so opposed to Esther and Ruth being satisfactory examples of the divine feminine.

    When I read the Bible, I'm looking for principles primarily. Ruth is a foreigner who has remained dedicated to her deceased husband's mother. The two have a strong bond and even when Naomi lets Ruth off the hook, Ruth replies your God shall be my God, your people shall be my people. She provides for herself and her mother-in-law as a pauper foraging in the fields until she marries Boaz. So it seems like the moral of the story is to stay faithful to your husband's family and you'll be rewarded by marrying well or something to that effect. Maybe the heroine here is Naomi who grooms her foreign daughter-in-law to become an enviable figure in Jewish culture.

    The whole book of Esther is full of wisdom. Esther's story is but one thread. She is portrayed as very beautiful and very obedient. Her wisdom is in who to obey in what circumstances. Her bravery is in acknowledging her identity even though it puts her life at risk... Maybe I do have something to learn from her about being honest.
    The attributes that place her in a position of influence are beauty, obedience and not being demanding. The attributes that cause her to fulfil a destiny are respect for authority, obedience, authenticity, selflessness.

    So both these stories have their strengths but I'm looking to know the attributes of the Devine feminine devoid of social hierarchy and male attachment. Maybe it doesn't exist and the Devine feminine operates solely under the influence of the masculine. Maybe neither feminine nor masculine exist and I'm creating unnecessary categories.

    Looking forward to the arrival of that book!
    Az, I'm wondering if part of your issue with Ruth and Esther is that the ideals they are celebrated for are tied up with outdated social standards? To me, what you've described above is not about feminine and masculine... it's social standards that are no longer held up as ideal in modern Australian culture. Even in Aussie forms of Christianity, when we talk about being a good wife it's not about obedience and subservience anymore... so those things are a big turn off for a lot of modern women (even Christian ones).

    If you try to keep cultural context in mind when you consider these women, rather than focusing on men vs women... you might find that your frame of reference changes slightly. Yes, men vs women was something that was integral to the social standard of the time, but that shouldn't lessen the importance of these women. Sure, their strengths may not be strengths by modern standards, but they were still strengths, and these women were still celebrated in their own right for those strengths. Just because the strengths were being obedient to their menfolk doesn't mean that they were not celebrated in their own right.

    It still means that they are perhaps not good role models for the modern woman. Except maybe for Ruth's ability to adapt and embrace a new situation, her loyalty to her friends, and her ability to provide for her new family even when there are no menfolk around. But that's where it comes down to the dangers of holding up ancient people as role models (and I think where some branches of Christianity fall down)... ancient people must be judged by THEIR social standards, not ours. Cultural context is important here. Things change. Social standards change. That doesn't mean that ancient peoples are to be ignored, it just means that we have to judge them within their own social context, not ours.

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      #32
      Re: The female identity in the bible.

      I like ^ Very articulate ...
      I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them ... John Bernard Books


      Indian Chief 'Two Eagles' was asked by a white government official; "You have observed the white man for 90 years. You've seen his wars and his technological advances. You've seen his progress, and the damage he's done."

      The Chief nodded in agreement.

      The official continued; "Considering all these events, in your opinion, where did the white man go wrong?"

      The Chief stared at the government official for over a minute and then calmly replied.. "When white man find land, Indians running it, no taxes, no debt, plenty buffalo, plenty beaver, clean water. Women did all the work, Medicine Man free. Indian man spend all day hunting and fishing; all night having sex."

      Then the chief leaned back and smiled; "Only white man dumb enough to think he could improve system like that."



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        #33
        Re: The female identity in the bible.

        Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
        That doesn't mean that ancient peoples are to be ignored, it just means that we have to judge them within their own social context, not ours.
        I didn't even realise I was doing this. Of course I was >.<

        I really think the Shekinah topic is the thread I need to follow. It's not that I think Ruth and Esther seem weak or not good role models - I'd probably find fault with all characters in the Bible. The Bible tends to show both the strengths and weaknesses of their characters. I know to learn from weaknesses as well, but I don't think biographies are what I'm looking for. I'm seeking something to interact with that offers direct experience.

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          #34
          Re: The female identity in the bible.

          Originally posted by Azvanna View Post
          I didn't even realise I was doing this. Of course I was >.<

          I really think the Shekinah topic is the thread I need to follow. It's not that I think Ruth and Esther seem weak or not good role models - I'd probably find fault with all characters in the Bible. The Bible tends to show both the strengths and weaknesses of their characters. I know to learn from weaknesses as well, but I don't think biographies are what I'm looking for. I'm seeking something to interact with that offers direct experience.
          In that case I would definitely look at the Shekinah then. Of course, now you're getting into the Apocrypha and pre-or-veryvery-early-Christian ideas... but there are some really interesting things to be found there.

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            #35
            Re: The female identity in the bible.

            Originally posted by Azvanna View Post
            Hate is too strong a word. I avoid buying books. Except if they are by Robin Hobb
            Off topic completely but I LOVE Robin Hobb and I can't believe I missed this before
            "If you want to know what a man is like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals." -- Sirius Black

            "Time is an illusion, lunch time doubly so."-- Ford Prefect

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              #36
              Re: The female identity in the bible.

              Originally posted by kalynraye View Post
              Off topic completely but I LOVE Robin Hobb and I can't believe I missed this before
              Oh my goodness I love you!!! I was beginning to think I was the only person on the forum who knew who she was.

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                #37
                Re: The female identity in the bible.

                Originally posted by Azvanna View Post
                Oh my goodness I love you!!! I was beginning to think I was the only person on the forum who knew who she was.
                No ma'am not at all!!!!! Its really nice to see someone else enjoys her as well. Alright back on topic.
                "If you want to know what a man is like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals." -- Sirius Black

                "Time is an illusion, lunch time doubly so."-- Ford Prefect

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                  #38
                  Re: The female identity in the bible.

                  What about Joan of Arc or other single heroic women of history? would that fit what you are looking for?
                  The Dragon sees infinity and those it touches are forced to feel the reality of it.
                  I am his student and his partner. He is my guide and an ominous friend.

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                    #39
                    Re: The female identity in the bible.

                    Originally posted by DragonsFriend View Post
                    What about Joan of Arc or other single heroic women of history? would that fit what you are looking for?
                    I'm so fussy I don't think so. It's definitely the Shekinah topic. I'm just waiting on that book.

                    Meanwhile, for anyone else who is interested in commentary of women of the Bible, I found this page while looking up Miriam and Zipporah: https://www.biblegateway.com/resourc...2-Alphabetical

                    Under Mary Magdalene's name, there was an excerpt of a poem:

                    Not she with traitorous kiss her Master stung,

                    Not she denied Him with unfaithful tongue;

                    She, when Apostles fled, could dangers brave,

                    Last at the Cross, and earliest at the grave.
                    Seems a pretty good example of the faithful love of the divine feminine to me!
                    Last edited by Azvanna; 20 Oct 2015, 04:53.

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                      #40
                      Re: The female identity in the bible.

                      Deborah is a terrible example of women in Judeo-Christianity.

                      She is the first judge of Israel, and a woman! Great, oh except that she is only in this position is because the men are "too weak" and cowardly to do the job, rather than because she'd be a good choice.

                      As for Ruth, I know her story culminated in how important it is to get married, but I'm not convinced it's about the importance of men to women, rather that having children is important to the continuity of the Hebrew people which was the prerogative of a small breakaway group from the Canaanite pantheon, they needed to put child making first, and it was as important for women as it was for men.

                      I think the general Jewish and early Christian relationship with women generally is a mixed bag, like at times they value women for being the vessel of the unborn, and at other times fear the menstrual cycle, possibly rightly so in times before proper sanitation which may have put women at risk and by extension the community.

                      The early Christian church was, definitely, influenced by Manichaeism which was possibly one of the worst cults of the ancient world, primarily because of its influence on Christianity, it hated life, sex, it was very negative and one of the Church Fathers was converted from it and, whilst he called it a heresy, he still projected his views of sex, and women, in his Christianity and was very influential. If Manichaeism had never existed, womens rights, particularly in the near East, may well be a LOT better.
                      I'm not one to ever pray for mercy
                      Or to wish on pennies in the fountain or the shrine
                      But that day you know I left my money
                      And I thought of you only
                      All that copper glowing fine

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                        #41
                        Re: The female identity in the bible.

                        Originally posted by Briton View Post
                        The early Christian church was, definitely, influenced by Manichaeism which was possibly one of the worst cults of the ancient world, primarily because of its influence on Christianity, it hated life, sex, it was very negative and one of the Church Fathers was converted from it and, whilst he called it a heresy, he still projected his views of sex, and women, in his Christianity and was very influential. If Manichaeism had never existed, womens rights, particularly in the near East, may well be a LOT better.
                        I've never heard of Manichaeism, but I'll look that up. Not knowing much about the Jewish attitude towards women at the time of the early church, it does seem that an outside influence could possibly have muddied stuff up a bit. I have always thought of the desire to leave this life, the suppression of sexuality and the suppression of women in church leadership as Pauline teaching, so I pinned it back on Jewish culture of the time.

                        I received the book On the Wings of Shekinah today!!! I have another book I'm working through at the moment, but I will try to read a bit from it tonight. If anything really life changing crops up, I'll type it out here.

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                          #42
                          Re: The female identity in the bible.

                          Well, Paul fully turned his back on his Jewish culture, it was a point of contention with people like James who didn't even want gentiles to be socialized with.

                          Manichaeism was Persian in origin. Speaking of which, Zoroastrianism influenced Judaism and that's quite clear too, but I am not sure if attitudes towards women were involved.
                          I'm not one to ever pray for mercy
                          Or to wish on pennies in the fountain or the shrine
                          But that day you know I left my money
                          And I thought of you only
                          All that copper glowing fine

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Re: The female identity in the bible.

                            The attitudes towards women in ancient Greece and Rome were already quite terrible, so it should be of no surprise that none of the early Church leaders did anything to change that...
                            Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                            sigpic

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                              #44
                              Re: The female identity in the bible.

                              Just to confuse things, they really admired widows who stayed independent in the early church.
                              I'm not one to ever pray for mercy
                              Or to wish on pennies in the fountain or the shrine
                              But that day you know I left my money
                              And I thought of you only
                              All that copper glowing fine

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Re: The female identity in the bible.

                                Originally posted by Briton View Post
                                Well, Paul fully turned his back on his Jewish culture, it was a point of contention with people like James who didn't even want gentiles to be socialized with.
                                Which is such a shame, Peter's vision in Acts 10 should have cleared that up. That aside, I believe his teaching on women being quiet in church etc comes down to how women were treated in Judaism. I remember hearing somewhere that there was a special court for women and gentiles on the fringes of the inner court where the Jewish men could worship, but I'm not sure if that was in Paul's day.

                                Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                                The attitudes towards women in ancient Greece and Rome were already quite terrible, so it should be of no surprise that none of the early Church leaders did anything to change that...
                                I wish I could remember where I read this, but I know there was a certain school of thought (maybe Plato??) that only men could reach divine perfection or something along those lines.

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