The intersections between Paganism and the Vegan way of living.

[Watchful Wanderer]

Before I say anything, I recommend checking out the articles of C.S. MacCath. Just know that this is not a simple matter of only health and healing, but also of ethics.

http://witchesandpagans.com/pagan-cu...roduction.html

http://witchesandpagans.com/pagan-cu...he-first.html4

http://witchesandpagans.com/pagan-cu...he-second.html

http://witchesandpagans.com/pagan-cu...ur-health.html

http://witchesandpagans.com/pagan-cu...sacrifice.html (I wouldn't take her quotes of Grandin seriously, as Grandin is dishonest and without sense.)

http://witchesandpagans.com/pagan-cu...od-equity.html

http://witchesandpagans.com/pagan-cu...hemselves.html

Finished? Good. Here's hoping this thread will be civil.

Ever since switching to this way of living, I noticed I was having less sick days(don't get me wrong, I still have them, but not nearly as often and they tend to go away faster.)

Anyhow, feel free to share how you feel on the topic.

[Jembru]

Congrats on making this bold life choice! Just don't take the nutritional advice lightly, or you might not feel so healthy forever!

I was vegan for 6 years, and I would definitely do it again if my financial situation changed. I quit because in year 5 of veganism, I went mad. I mean, I actually became mentally ill. I started having delusions, seeing things, I was seeing my mediation world in this world and couldn't see where my imagination ended and reality began. I was a mess.

It turned out to be a severe vitamin deficiency (mainly B12). I was able to pay for the supplements and eat a good varied diet for another year, but then I moved to Japan. Eating a varied diet was very hard there. They add fish to everything. So I ended up having to relax my principles and eat dairy. When I returned to England, I never again had the disposable income to eat well as a vegan. I still keep dairy to a minimum, but I don't avoid it altogether, and I have eggs too.

When I was vegan, I never really considered it as part of my faith though. It may have been the same compassion for life that pushed me towards both, but they were separate. I don't agree that veganism makes one a better pagan, or more spiritually sound. I never felt I was somehow better than others for being vegan either. I just felt that for me personally, it was the right thing to do. I'm not actually against eating meat or dairy, but I don't like our modern farming methods. I understand why we treat animals the way we do, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. So I choose to play no part of it. Besides my cat of course. Vegetarian, vegan or not, I'd never dream of denying my cat her natural diet!

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Or was that year 4... It's been so long now I can't remember...

[Munin-Hugin]

Folks that force their animals to eat "vegan" or "vegetarian" diets when the critters are naturally carnivores borderlines on animal cruelty.

As for vegans and pagans, if it works for you, great, but like Jembru said - being one doesn't make you "better" at the other. In fact, this sort of thing makes me irate and gets my hackles up. I would never dream of telling you what to ingest, so keep your damn ideas off my plate. Personally, I get cravings for meat, and if I go too long without I in fact start to feel rather sluggish and ill. You may say that it's just the proteins and the vitamins that I'm missing, but I would disagree. It feels like it's much more than that. I suppose that may seem a little creepy and bordering along the concept of zoophagia and life force consumption, but there it is. Munching on mung beans and spinach may make one person feel empowered and righteous, while gnawing on a rack of ribs makes me feel satisfied and energized (after the food coma from eating too much, of course).

Try telling Thor that he's got to stop making a feast out of Tanngrisnir and Tanngnjóstr every once in a while and resurrecting them in the morning, and has to go forage around for nuts, berries, and tofu.

[Jembru]

Even without having eaten meat since I was 6 years old, I can actually imagine the feeling you're describing. I can't feel the same 'full' feeling from bean-based protein alone. I have to eat something containing fat with it. When I was vegan, I would eat beans on toast almost every day, with olive oil spread (dunno what I'd do now come to think of it, because I won't have hydrogenated fats now.. hmm..). That was the most filling meal for me. It's a complete protein, so probably comparable to meat. So I think I know the feeling you're describing!

You know, of course people are going to feel defensive if they feel they're being told what to eat. What annoys me though, is when people get defensive with me just for being vegetarian. Like the opposite situation. They'll start lecturing me on why it's okay to eat meat. I was once quite aggressively attacked at a training day for work, because someone noticed I wasn't eating meat so asked if I was vegetarian. He was arguing with things I hadn't even said. Like 'people like you say... But you know what I say to that...' It was real bullcrap. I ended it though, by explaining that 'yes, it IS okay that you choose to eat meat. It sounds to me like you need to convince yourself that. Why else would you feel compelled to defend your choice to someone who doesn't care what you eat, and never asked for your opinion?' I just figure, if their conscience was clear, they'd be quite happy to live and let live (probably a bad phrase to use, lol). I guess some people might feel that I'm judging them, but I'm not. I'm most likely worrying about what they're thinking about my weird shaped face, sunken eyes and misshapen thighs...

[Watchful Wanderer]

Folks that force their animals to eat "vegan" or "vegetarian" diets when the critters are naturally carnivores borderlines on animal cruelty.

As for vegans and pagans, if it works for you, great, but like Jembru said - being one doesn't make you "better" at the other. In fact, this sort of thing makes me irate and gets my hackles up. I would never dream of telling you what to ingest, so keep your damn ideas off my plate. Personally, I get cravings for meat, and if I go too long without I in fact start to feel rather sluggish and ill. You may say that it's just the proteins and the vitamins that I'm missing, but I would disagree. It feels like it's much more than that. I suppose that may seem a little creepy and bordering along the concept of zoophagia and life force consumption, but there it is. Munching on mung beans and spinach may make one person feel empowered and righteous, while gnawing on a rack of ribs makes me feel satisfied and energized (after the food coma from eating too much, of course).

Try telling Thor that he's got to stop making a feast out of Tanngrisnir and Tanngnjóstr every once in a while and resurrecting them in the morning, and has to go forage around for nuts, berries, and tofu.

What implies that one who is vegan would be "better" than one who is not? There is nothing wrong with one showing something as rare among humans as compassion and ethical decency, especially when considered their decisions would effect the lives of other beings.

There's the fact that humans just don't have any carnivorous instincts or anatomy(our "canine" teeth are for biting into fruits and nuts, as their shape and length attest to.) and we can't digest meat or eggs properly without it hurting us(doesn't matter if its raw or cooked.)

I think most(if not all of us here) know what happens in the concentration camps the meat industry sets up, you've probably seen the undercover footage before, so I don't think I need to go into it, needless to say, it would make an eternity in Tartarus seem pleasant.

As for dairy, well first off, its common knowledge that for a mother only lactates during and after pregnancy. In the dairy industry, cows are raped to impregnate them, and right after she gives birth, her child is taken from her. Can't have a calf drinking all that breast milk that was meant for them, when they could give it to you instead right? The calf, if a bull/male will likely be sold as veal, this is done by putting him in a crate where he can't even move(otherwise his corpse would be less tender) and giving him steroids to fatten him up. If the calf is a cow/female, she meets the same fate as her mother. So, the meat and dairy industry is guilty of mass genocide, sexual abuse and child abuse. We haven't even discussed the egg industry yet


P.S. I do live with two felines, both hunt their own prey and I do feed them meat(pretty much the only ones allowed to have it because(unlike humans) species that are obligate carnivores have a justification. Carnivores in the wild only go after the weak or sick members of a herd, preventing overpopulation in the long run. Which species is suffering the most from overpopulation? Humans.)

[Jembru]

No one has said there is anything wrong with your choice. Just that veganism and paganism don't go hand in hand.

[Munin-Hugin]

What implies that one who is vegan would be "better" than one who is not? There is nothing wrong with one showing something as rare among humans as compassion and ethical decency, especially when considered their decisions would effect the lives of other beings.

There's the fact that humans just don't have any carnivorous instincts or anatomy(our "canine" teeth are for biting into fruits and nuts, as their shape and length attest to.) and we can't digest meat or eggs properly without it hurting us(doesn't matter if its raw or cooked.)

I think most(if not all of us here) know what happens in the concentration camps the meat industry sets up, you've probably seen the undercover footage before, so I don't think I need to go into it, needless to say, it would make an eternity in Tartarus seem pleasant.

As for dairy, well first off, its common knowledge that for a mother only lactates during and after pregnancy. In the dairy industry, cows are raped to impregnate them, and right after she gives birth, her child is taken from her. Can't have a calf drinking all that breast milk that was meant for them, when they could give it to you instead right? The calf, if a bull/male will likely be sold as veal, this is done by putting him in a crate where he can't even move(otherwise his corpse would be less tender) and giving him steroids to fatten him up. If the calf is a cow/female, she meets the same fate as her mother. So, the meat and dairy industry is guilty of mass genocide, sexual abuse and child abuse. We haven't even discussed the egg industry yet


P.S. I do live with two felines, both hunt their own prey and I do feed them meat(pretty much the only ones allowed to have it because(unlike humans) species that are obligate carnivores have a justification. Carnivores in the wild only go after the weak or sick members of a herd, preventing overpopulation in the long run. Which species is suffering the most from overpopulation? Humans.)

This. All of this is why I get pissed off. The preaching, the rambling on and on about how we aren't supposed to eat meat, how he treat our meat horribly, blah blah blah. It's the whole holier-than-thou attitude that you're a "better" human being and a more "ethical" person because you avoid animal by-products. I take offense that you pretty much said I was not an ethical or decent being because I enjoy flesh, cooked or otherwise. Screw that noise. Especially after I had just commented that that was the exact crap that makes me want to punch baby cows. Then eat them with a nice marsala sauce. Maybe I'll make you happy and add some mushrooms to it. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go THOROUGHLY enjoy my double cheeseburger with extra bacon.

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I apologize for the double post, but I came across this and figured that it would be worth sharing, as it discusses many of the things that had been brought up already (health, digestion, nutrition).

http://authoritynutrition.com/7-evid...s-to-eat-meat/

As things seemed a bit derailed right off the bat, here's something else I'd like to add.

Not all pagans view the eating of meat or the killing of animals as a bad thing. It is not ethically wrong to do so. While the way the raising and slaughter is done has changed, pagans across the centuries have supported the growth of beasts solely for the purpose of consumption. I suppose it could be greatly stretched to say that specific types of pagans could be considered "better" pagans by being vegan, but that relies upon specific beliefs and becomes a religious choice that only applies to that brand of paganism. To make a blanket statement that"vegan = better pagan" is rather narrow minded.

[Medusa]

There's the fact that humans just don't have any carnivorous instincts or anatomy(our "canine" teeth are for biting into fruits and nuts, as their shape and length attest to.) and we can't digest meat or eggs properly without it hurting us(doesn't matter if its raw or cooked.)

How have I been eating all this meat my whole life? Thank you for letting me know what my mouth is incapable of doing.

[Jembru]

How have I been eating all this meat my whole life? Thank you for letting me know what my mouth is incapable of doing.

lol!

See.. it's actually true. Our ancestors didn't eat meat. We didn't eat a purely vegan diet either though. Saying as we probably couldn't have found all the essential amino acids we need, or the B vitamins we seem to go loopy without, we almost certainly ate bugs. Lovely, crunchy protein rich bugs. Eating uncooked meat would be harmful to us now, and would have been fatal for sure in the past. Yet bugs are just as fine uncooked as they are roasted!

That was then.. the glory days. We've since learnt to cook meat, and lost our taste for wiggly crawly things (I know, it's a crying shame). We've adapted* (well.. you have at least. I dread to think what would happen if I started eating meat, as I doubt I have the right gut flora to cope with it), to make use of the rich resource that became available to us, and we were able to achieve great things as a result.

It's not a strong argument to point to our physicality as an argument for being vegan. The giant panda evolved from a carnivore, so it has a short intestinal tract, unlike we omnivores who have a longer one because it takes longer to break down plant material and thus absorb the nutrients from it. This is why just to stay alive, it has to spend pretty much its entire waking life eating bamboo. It was a stupid idea nature.. you hear!!! Still, no one would suggest it stopped eating bamboo because it is so ill equipped to do so, would they?

Anyway, please lets not let this turn into another veggies v carnies. Please don't feel the need to justify your life style choices to me, or anyone else. If one wants to be vegan, they're free to do so.

And if you really want to be natural... EAT BUGS!!!!!

*that one's for you Thal ^^

[Medusa]

Corn is not meat. Yet for the life of me I poop it out whole.
Corn must be the devil.