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Thread: Apparently I'm not doing the 'right' 'rites'

  1. #11
    Silver Member monsno_leedra's Avatar
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    Re: Apparently I'm not doing the 'right' 'rites'

    I do know that some groups utilize the great rite under the pretense of using the athame and chalice as the symbolic male and female vice having an actual priest & priestess perform the rite. But like Maskedone said there are more ways and more practitioners than one can shake a stick at and say this or that is or is not Wicca.
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    PF Ordo Hereticus MaskedOne's Avatar
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    Re: Apparently I'm not doing the 'right' 'rites'

    Quote Originally Posted by monsno_leedra View Post
    I do know that some groups utilize the great rite under the pretense of using the athame and chalice as the symbolic male and female vice having an actual priest & priestess perform the rite. But like Maskedone said there are more ways and more practitioners than one can shake a stick at and say this or that is or is not Wicca.
    I'm aware of the symbolic version but don't they still have two participants? One holding the chalice and the other using the Athame. Is there an existing work-around to that?
    "It is not simply enough to know the light…a Jedi must feel the tension between the two sides of the Force…in himself and in the universe."
    ―Thon

    "When to the Force you truly give yourself, all you do expresses the truth of who you are,"

    Yoda

    Yoda told stories, and ate, and cried, and laughed: and the Padawans saw that life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

    Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

    "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

    John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

    "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

    Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis



  3. #13
    Supporter Jembru's Avatar
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    Re: Apparently I'm not doing the 'right' 'rites'

    Quote Originally Posted by Serria View Post
    Ok. Personally, I just don't like the idea of a high priest and/or priestess. I don't like the idea of someone being more important or above anybody else.

    again, that's just my opinion.
    The high priestess and high priest aren't above anyone. We're all priestess and priests from the moment we take our first initiation. They are simply recognised for their knowledge, and in a position to guide the rest of us through rituals, and through our training. It's a poorly run coven that thinks the HPS and HP are above the regular members.

    I have to agree that I don't know how I could carry out the great rite in token as a solitary (and the great rite actual would be quite a feat!), so it never made it into my solitary practice. I don't think it made much difference to the significance of my rites though. There are a lot of differences between group and solitary work, but I never felt one was better than the other (and when it came to spells, I often found working alone was a lot more effective...).
    夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

  4. #14
    Silver Member monsno_leedra's Avatar
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    Re: Apparently I'm not doing the 'right' 'rites'

    Quote Originally Posted by MaskedOne View Post
    I'm aware of the symbolic version but don't they still have two participants? One holding the chalice and the other using the Athame. Is there an existing work-around to that?
    In all honesty I've only seen it with a single person representation twice. In that capacity the rite was seen as the person receiving the "Gifts" or energy of both male and female and acknowledging them and his / her relationship to the divine. Sort of indicating the divine was both external to them yet within them at the same time which allowed them to be influenced by both. I believe it also suggested that the divine was both without (ie the athame and chalice) and within (holding the items physically and as part or an extension of themselves) but took focus and dedication to meld them properly. But in welding the acolyte or practitioner was both human and divine at the same time.

    I know the person was Wiccan but I can't even tell you what flavor they claimed to be.
    I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

  5. #15
    PF Ordo Hereticus MaskedOne's Avatar
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    Re: Apparently I'm not doing the 'right' 'rites'

    Quote Originally Posted by monsno_leedra View Post
    In all honesty I've only seen it with a single person representation twice. In that capacity the rite was seen as the person receiving the "Gifts" or energy of both male and female and acknowledging them and his / her relationship to the divine. Sort of indicating the divine was both external to them yet within them at the same time which allowed them to be influenced by both. I believe it also suggested that the divine was both without (ie the athame and chalice) and within (holding the items physically and as part or an extension of themselves) but took focus and dedication to meld them properly. But in welding the acolyte or practitioner was both human and divine at the same time.

    I know the person was Wiccan but I can't even tell you what flavor they claimed to be.
    Heh, learn something new every day. I wouldn't have ever expected a solitary version of that rite. It'd be interesting to see a write up of that ritual.
    "It is not simply enough to know the light…a Jedi must feel the tension between the two sides of the Force…in himself and in the universe."
    ―Thon

    "When to the Force you truly give yourself, all you do expresses the truth of who you are,"

    Yoda

    Yoda told stories, and ate, and cried, and laughed: and the Padawans saw that life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

    Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

    "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

    John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

    "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

    Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis



  6. #16
    Silver Member monsno_leedra's Avatar
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    Re: Apparently I'm not doing the 'right' 'rites'

    Quote Originally Posted by MaskedOne View Post
    Heh, learn something new every day. I wouldn't have ever expected a solitary version of that rite. It'd be interesting to see a write up of that ritual.
    Truthfully wish I could recall more of the trappings and build-up and tear-down that was done during what I was allowed to see. Was not Wicca of any sort but the person was a friend so very little mystical aspects spoken about. Was once asked if I wanted to see an actual full blown great rite with sexual union before the group but at the time it didn't appeal to me as anything more than voyerism. Especially considering the priestess was really hot looking to a guy my age at the time. However I never knew if that was a all of us do it that way or just something that group did.

    Sometimes youth is so wasted on the young when we watch and look but really do not have the control to actually understand or pay full attention to those less than enticing parts that sort of tittlelate us.
    I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

  7. #17
    Supporter Jembru's Avatar
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    Re: Apparently I'm not doing the 'right' 'rites'

    Wait... I change my stance.. you could totally perform the rite on your own.. in token at least. I was wondering how you'd do it in a physical, not a metaphysical sense. Because, at least the version I know, it's a key aspect of the ritual that the chalice moves up to meet the athame moving down, so that the union is equal on both sides. If you left the chalice on the altar and plunged the athame into it, you'd lose that key aspect.

    Then I remembered we have two hands! In the coven, we'd hold the tools with both hands (and we always passed them with both hands too), but this was more a matter of aesthetics.

    Saying as both goddess and god are present in the circle when the solitary is working, I don't see why he or she couldn't allow the tools to represent them. If it has meaning to them this way, then that would be fine.
    夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

  8. #18
    PF Ordo Hereticus MaskedOne's Avatar
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    Re: Apparently I'm not doing the 'right' 'rites'

    Quote Originally Posted by monsno_leedra View Post
    Truthfully wish I could recall more of the trappings and build-up and tear-down that was done during what I was allowed to see. Was not Wicca of any sort but the person was a friend so very little mystical aspects spoken about. Was once asked if I wanted to see an actual full blown great rite with sexual union before the group but at the time it didn't appeal to me as anything more than voyerism. Especially considering the priestess was really hot looking to a guy my age at the time. However I never knew if that was a all of us do it that way or just something that group did.

    Sometimes youth is so wasted on the young when we watch and look but really do not have the control to actually understand or pay full attention to those less than enticing parts that sort of tittlelate us.
    I'd make about as terrible a Wiccan as I do a Catholic but they sometimes have some interesting ideas. This is something I'd never heard of or expected to hear about so now you have me curious about what other features the group had that I wouldn't expect.
    "It is not simply enough to know the light…a Jedi must feel the tension between the two sides of the Force…in himself and in the universe."
    ―Thon

    "When to the Force you truly give yourself, all you do expresses the truth of who you are,"

    Yoda

    Yoda told stories, and ate, and cried, and laughed: and the Padawans saw that life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

    Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

    "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

    John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

    "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

    Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis



  9. #19
    Supporter Jembru's Avatar
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    Re: Apparently I'm not doing the 'right' 'rites'

    Quote Originally Posted by monsno_leedra View Post
    Truthfully wish I could recall more of the trappings and build-up and tear-down that was done during what I was allowed to see. Was not Wicca of any sort but the person was a friend so very little mystical aspects spoken about. Was once asked if I wanted to see an actual full blown great rite with sexual union before the group but at the time it didn't appeal to me as anything more than voyerism. Especially considering the priestess was really hot looking to a guy my age at the time. However I never knew if that was a all of us do it that way or just something that group did.

    Sometimes youth is so wasted on the young when we watch and look but really do not have the control to actually understand or pay full attention to those less than enticing parts that sort of tittlelate us.
    WHAT???

    This doesn't happen. Sorry I shouldn't judge. But the great rite is sacred and shouldn't be viewed. In the traditional version, the maiden leads the rest of the group out of the circle until completion. I've heard horror stories of covens that have open ritual sex but it's not something I've heard of in reputable covens around here.
    夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

  10. #20
    Silver Member monsno_leedra's Avatar
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    Re: Apparently I'm not doing the 'right' 'rites'

    Quote Originally Posted by MaskedOne View Post
    I'd make about as terrible a Wiccan as I do a Catholic but they sometimes have some interesting ideas. This is something I'd never heard of or expected to hear about so now you have me curious about what other features the group had that I wouldn't expect.
    Not the great rite but they were all pretty vocal about the three fold law and it being one of three venues it returned (mental, physical and psychological) and not anything about it being three times stronger or longer in return. Made a lot of sense to me and was how I always understood it after that. Really wish now that I had paid more attention to things during those talks and observations.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jembru View Post
    WHAT???

    This doesn't happen. Sorry I shouldn't judge. But the great rite is sacred and shouldn't be viewed. In the traditional version, the maiden leads the rest of the group out of the circle until completion. I've heard horror stories of covens that have open ritual sex but it's not something I've heard of in reputable covens around here.
    But if its sacred and hidden then your almost placing it in the category of the Elizabethan notion of sex and such. The maiden leading others out or away from the area falls into that not to be seen or witnessed as it's dirty and unclean. One of the things I recall the Frost's got hammered for when it became about purity and sex and implied awakening of the virgin flower and the Kings. Don't quote me on that as I am trying to recall it from long ago. Figure on some levels the great rite was all about procreation and the union to create life and bring forth the blessing of god and goddess, in some capacity a reference to the great fertility rites and orgastic festivals where sex was almost free for all.
    I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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