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Paganism is a religion built upon consumerism?

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    #16
    Re: Paganism is a religion built upon consumerism?

    Hmmm,the B. De. getting serious up in here...I would heed his words..it is seldom he gets all serious,ever...
    MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

    all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
    NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
    don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




    sigpic

    my new page here,let me know what you think.


    nothing but the shadow of what was

    witchvox
    http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

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      #17
      Re: Paganism is a religion built upon consumerism?

      "Read over what you've written and notice how insulting you were to so many of us who have to work for a living, but have still managed to be decent people."

      I have, I see no where I have insulted people who have to work for a living. Can you point to where that is? One can work for a living and decide not to insult the poor by claiming their inability to pay is a sign they don't value others work.

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        #18
        Re: Paganism is a religion built upon consumerism?

        Nope.

        See ya.
        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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          #19
          Re: Paganism is a religion built upon consumerism?

          I realize that as we don't know each other it's possible to interpret people in vastly different ways than they intend. My meaning is so far from attempting to insult people for needing to work that I am genuinely not sure where you're coming from, but I do apologize my wording may have been unclear enough for you to get a very different impression of what I was trying to express than I intended. Someone else just created a very clear perspective on where I was going with how communities can buffer against the harms of capitalism on our most vulnerable members:
          "... striving to attain individual success within a capitalist, white supremacist, misogynist nation is to some extent a fool's game if you're not a white male capital-holder. I would suggest that collectively organizing to develop networks of mutual support that would allow us to define our own value in our own terms, rather than on the tainted terms of the rich, is the thing that we should be trying to do, rather than simply striving for individual success on capitalist terms. Of course, that's hard, and capital actively suppresses things like that, and well being a radical is itself harmful to one's health in a lot of ways. " Which was a comment in response to this article:


          I am tired of the most vulnerable being asked to be more compassionate asking for basic human rights from those with more power to ignore their genuine survival needs. I feel that is a tactic actively used to suppress people who are courageous enough to say that some things ARE NOT OK and we should not have to be "nice" about it to be heard.

          That said I do believe in compassion for all beings, even including rapists, abusers, racists, people who would rather let the poor die and argue AGAINST helping them... etc etc.

          And I put my actions there.. in a time of need I am the sort of person who is there regardless ofa persons past deeds and will argue the rights even of very wretched people because I DO believe in compassion and practice it.

          I just don't believe protecting the comfort zone of people causing harm is part of the practice of compassion. I have already seen on this forum a lot of harsh words toward people who practice "light magic" or believe in compassion as the highest value, including vegetarians leaving due to people's harsh responses- so I am still on gaurd getting to know who in this place has that attitude that insulting those who practice compassion is ok. It's funny I notice those who want me to have more compassion for their vice, often don't want to give me compassion when I am not being as compassionate as they want. I have my reasons compassion is hard to carry out perfectly for me as well-- does that get to be considered in your hopes that we will be more compassionate toward those who fail to do what's right?

          For some reasons a lot of places it's placed on the most vulnerable to do the most heavy lifting of the work of being compassionate for why everyone is ignoring their needs for help or protection or basic human rights. I don't think that's right.

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            #20
            Re: Paganism is a religion built upon consumerism?

            I think it is due to New Age. Very few neopagans are not New Agers and New Age thrives on consumer products like books, tarot decks, DVDs, incence and idols of gods, mainly of Indian and Chinese deities, but also European ones on occasion. Without this, I don't see neopaganism having become the extensive subculture that it is now.

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              #21
              Re: Paganism is a religion built upon consumerism?

              First off, I would like to say:

              Domtar, not every thread is about privilege vs. underprivileged, domination vs. weak, men vs. women, violence vs. compassion. I would greatly appreciate it is you would stop trying to turn every thread you post in into some sort of soap-box declaration about how everyone out there who does not bow down to peace and love and hugs and flowers is a misogynistic, wife beating, supremacist spouting, egotistical male.

              Now, back to our regularly scheduled post about CONSUMERISM:

              I can understand how it comes out to seem that Paganism is very much money-driven. With the emphasis of "do it yourself altars", no formal properties for worship, a lack of public acknowledgement of the faiths, and no specific "holy books" to draw upon, that leaves many of us in an interesting position. We feel the need to pretty up our sacred spaces, to search long and hard through book after book for the nuggets of truth that appeal to us. The Christians, Jews, and Muslims all have their churches, temples, and mosques with stained glass windows, polished hard wood, gilded altars, and specially woven rugs, as well as having all sorts of artisans to craft elaborate looking tomes. What do we have? Well, um ... Here's an old table from the attic and a spiral notebook I found in a desk drawer ...

              It's not a "us vs. them" thing, really. I think it's just more visible in the fact that we tend to buy and decorate and fancy up our places as individuals, rather than as large groups.

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                #22
                Re: Paganism is a religion built upon consumerism?

                I, myself, like to create specific pieces for people who are unable to find those things they want to have, as symbols, of their beliefs.

                I am a very honest businessman (that is, I am a capitalist). People who have had dealings with me trust me.

                I have spent years developing my particular skill set.

                The only way I can survive is by charging money for that which I produce. Money is not bad. People tend to devalue that for which they do not pay. Think of payment as an offering.

                The exchange of honest payment for honest goods recieved is such a basic human interaction, I find it appalling that some people find it so terrible. It is much like cursing love.

                True - it as subject to abuse. Honestly, although I have no problem with Christian symbolism, I do have a problem with charging $60 for a simple cross made with $5 of silver and an hour of work (that should be $35 -40, not $60-80 as is more commonly charged), so I rarely do it. Weirdly, people seem to prefer to overpay than underpay. With the exception of friends (to whom I charge as little as I think I can with hurting their feelings) people tend to buy more when I charge more.

                My experience is that those who produce goods for pagans do so undercharge for their work that they may just as well do it for free. This is as much true for me as it is for, say, Tylluan Penry, who does not earn nearly enough for her outstanding scholarship as she ought to.

                IMHO- what pagans need is less "free work," and more people who are willing to finance artists, scholars, and thinkers.

                If folks want a living, interesting, vibrant culture, they need to be willing to support it.

                DaVinci, Michelangelo, even Frater Angelico did not work for free. Also, monks of most denominations are supported by their community, as are priests. Why imagine that pagans deserve less?
                Last edited by B. de Corbin; 19 Jul 2015, 14:58.
                Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                  #23
                  Re: Paganism is a religion built upon consumerism?

                  Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post

                  IMHO- what pagans need is less "free work," and more people who are willing to finance artists, scholars, and thinkers.

                  This x 100
                  Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                    #24
                    Re: Paganism is a religion built upon consumerism?

                    Interesting read. I get what the author is saying, but I disagree with a lot of the major points. The biggest disagreement I have is that paganism is unlike other religions in this regard. I gather the author is from the UK. Do they not have Christian bookstores in the UK? In my hometown, there are two bookstores - a standard bookstore and a Christian bookstore. The Christian one looks like your average occult book shop, but with a Christian theme. It's filled with books, Christian music, angel figurines, cross jewelry, etc. It's a very successful business. When you look into the sales of Christian business, it's pretty big industry.

                    I disagree that buying books and accessories or whatnot is essential to paganism. I haven't spent a cent on my practice since 2009, other than the odd candle or essential oil purchase. I know plenty of others who don't buy into the whole "you need this and this and that" idea of being a pagan. Buying books on paganism is no more essential than buying books on Jesus. Yes, LOTS of people do (and if you don't know serious Christians who don't buy books on their religion, you don't know all that many serious Christians), but that doesn't mean it's essential to practice. I wouldn't count related industries like candlemaking in this argument either. Churches buy those too. Churches spend lots of money running their church.

                    We live in a consumerist society. Love it or hate it, that will reflect itself in almost every aspect of our lives, whether it be our religion, our political beliefs, or our taste in art. The whole deal about consumerist societies is that people will find a reason to sell almost anything, and almost everything comes back to money. That's not to say that everyone has to buy into it and run with the grain of spending and selling, but until things change, it will always be there, in all aspects of our lives.

                    And I think even in a non-consumerist environment, people will always let their religion, values, and political beliefs influence their creative work. So in that respect, pagan books, art, and music are not going anywhere.

                    - - - Updated - - -

                    Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                    IMHO- what pagans need is less "free work," and more people who are willing to finance artists, scholars, and thinkers.

                    If folks want a living, interesting, vibrant culture, they need to be willing to support it.

                    DaVinci, Michelangelo, even Frater Angelico did not work for free. Also, monks of most denominations are supported by their community, as are priests. Why imagine that pagans deserve less?
                    This x 100000000

                    Not just pagans, either. Anyone who does creative work. I am a writer and musician, and a pagan, but I am not a pagan writer or musician (as in, none of my creative work has pagan themes or is about paganism). People like me (pagan or not) also need a world like that. Capitalism and consumerism isn't actually great for art, because the free market will always favour the lowest common denominator, and art doesn't always reflect mass tastes at the time. Good art (meaning literature, film, music, etc) always shakes things up. Sometimes, it catches on right away (look at the Beatles), but sometimes, it takes years to let its true influence show. In a free market environment, we kill a lot of great work.

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                      #25
                      Re: Paganism is a religion built upon consumerism?

                      Originally posted by DanieMarie View Post
                      This x 100000000

                      Not just pagans, either. Anyone who does creative work. I am a writer and musician, and a pagan, but I am not a pagan writer or musician (as in, none of my creative work has pagan themes or is about paganism). People like me (pagan or not) also need a world like that. Capitalism and consumerism isn't actually great for art, because the free market will always favour the lowest common denominator, and art doesn't always reflect mass tastes at the time. Good art (meaning literature, film, music, etc) always shakes things up. Sometimes, it catches on right away (look at the Beatles), but sometimes, it takes years to let its true influence show. In a free market environment, we kill a lot of great work.
                      I agree with all of this. My chorus teacher once told us "Don't think that you can't find a career in music, or any kind of art. People will always tell you you can't. But if it's what you love, go for it."

                      I plan to major in art in college, and someone once told me I was an idoit and that I should go into "science or medicine or something". The thing is, there's so much pressure like that on kids when they choose thier career path. The "Don't be an artist line". Hell my mother's even given me it. My friends all want to be doctors and bioengineers. And then there's me, the one holed up drawing all summer. I've had teachers try to talk me out of it. My parents have tried to talk me out of it. Hell everyone's tried to talk me out of it.

                      And that's the problem. Is that because Capitalism and Consumerism isn't great for art, more and more kids who aspire to be artists are discouraged so much they give up. I feel like that's wrong.

                      And I feel like some people are afraid of art. Afraid of it's power, of what it can do. One song, one painting, one film, can change so much. Look at Blackfish! I wanted to go to SeaWorld more than anything before I saw that film. Now I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. That one documentary changed the way thousands of people looked at SeaWorld. That's the power art has. Mackelmore's "Same Love" Changed a lot of minds.

                      Art has power, and I feel like people are terrified of that power.


                      Oh did you hear about the etsy thing? How no one can sell things like spells and such anymore because it's "False Advertising" or something along those lines? That's another example. You could get a lot of materials for pagan practice through etsy, but not anymore......... that's dumb in my opinion. If someone buys it, they're taking the chance it "won't work". Besides it's thier beliefs. That's completely unfair. Because now think about how many pagan artists can't sell thier work anymore! A lot of people are angry and saying it's an attack on pagans.......
                      See here's the article: http://time.com/3929919/etsy-ban-spells/ It says just spells and such, but I saw this said by someone who runs an etsy shop: "According to Etsy's policy any metaphysical item, including candles, spells, spell-kits, jewelry, soaps, magickal oils etc, should be removed if it even "suggests" a possible result, even if a tangible item is included. Doesn't matter. Not allowed, so there will be a lot of shops closing down soon I guess. "
                      See the thing is even if it delivers a PHYSICAL item it could be shut down.
                      Love me for who I am, not for who you want me to be.

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                        #26
                        Re: Paganism is a religion built upon consumerism?

                        I am kind of with B. De..he creates things I would label "ART"..as in the art of metallurgy..a Lost art mostly..also B. De. On history channel they have a program on forge work where people are given a certain forging task(Make a certain type of blade in a certain style of forging) very interesting show. Name of the show is "Forged in fire"
                        MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                        all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                        NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                        don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                        sigpic

                        my new page here,let me know what you think.


                        nothing but the shadow of what was

                        witchvox
                        http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Re: Paganism is a religion built upon consumerism?

                          Originally posted by CrystalJackal View Post
                          Oh did you hear about the etsy thing? How no one can sell things like spells and such anymore because it's "False Advertising" or something along those lines? That's another example. You could get a lot of materials for pagan practice through etsy, but not anymore......... that's dumb in my opinion. If someone buys it, they're taking the chance it "won't work". Besides it's thier beliefs. That's completely unfair. Because now think about how many pagan artists can't sell thier work anymore! A lot of people are angry and saying it's an attack on pagans.......
                          See here's the article: http://time.com/3929919/etsy-ban-spells/ It says just spells and such, but I saw this said by someone who runs an etsy shop: "According to Etsy's policy any metaphysical item, including candles, spells, spell-kits, jewelry, soaps, magickal oils etc, should be removed if it even "suggests" a possible result, even if a tangible item is included. Doesn't matter. Not allowed, so there will be a lot of shops closing down soon I guess. "
                          See the thing is even if it delivers a PHYSICAL item it could be shut down.
                          This may have gone a little too far if it is extended to anyhave to be money, but there should be an exchange of some kind and as Thal has already pointed out, money is the most convenient method. Money is our modern day grain. Our offices are our personal plot of farmland, our paychecks are the harvest that results from our toiling on our land, and so we give a bag or two of this 'grain' in exchange for other goods, or else transform it into goods we can exchange for more grain.

                          Nothing's really changed, and money in and of itself isn't evil or negative. It can do terrible things.. kill an addict, fund terrorism, fuel human trafficking, but it can also save lives, settle disputes and end hunger. It has a power and magic all of its own, and coins can make a fantastic addition to a spell (but must, must be cleansed first because coins are also very good at picking up energies from people who've touched them, and they're handled by a lot of people). Greed and corruption are the real nasties that give money a bad name, but this has always been an ailment of mankind, yes.. even before we had money.

                          - - - Updated - - -

                          Originally posted by DanieMarie View Post
                          Interesting read. I get what the author is saying, but I disagree with a lot of the major points. The biggest disagreement I have is that paganism is unlike other religions in this regard. I gather the author is from the UK. Do they not have Christian bookstores in the UK?
                          I know of at least two: one in Whitley Bay, and another is in Newcastle, actually directly across the street from a metaphysical store! I think the author was just being selective with the 'facts'.
                          夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

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                            #28
                            Re: Paganism is a religion built upon consumerism?

                            ^^
                            Yep. The problem with selling metaphysical items is that there is always room for abuse there.

                            After I studied my creative stuff, I studied marketing, and one thing I took from it (aside from the sheer extent that a lot of the world is just trying to sell you something) is how important advertising standards and customer safety laws are. Most developed countries ban products, brands, or businesses of any size from making claims that they cannot prove, and those laws are there for a reason. We don't want a pill telling you that it's going to cure cancer when there's no proof and we do not want a beauty product telling us directly that it will make us instantly attractive to everyone, so we have to accept that we can't sell things like spells, which also make really abstract, non-tangible promises that no one can really back up. The way around it would be to do what advertisers do and just imply it through imagery.

                            Originally posted by Jembru View Post
                            I know of at least two: one in Whitley Bay, and another is in Newcastle, actually directly across the street from a metaphysical store! I think the author was just being selective with the 'facts'.
                            That's what I've figured, but since I've only been to London, Glasgow, Inverness, and the remote parts of Scotland, I had no confirmation myself.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Re: Paganism is a religion built upon consumerism?

                              Originally posted by Jembru View Post
                              This may have gone a little too far if it is extended to anyhave to be money, but there should be an exchange of some kind and as Thal has already pointed out, money is the most convenient method. Money is our modern day grain. Our offices are our personal plot of farmland, our paychecks are the harvest that results from our toiling on our land, and so we give a bag or two of this 'grain' in exchange for other goods, or else transform it into goods we can exchange for more grain.

                              Nothing's really changed, and money in and of itself isn't evil or negative. It can do terrible things.. kill an addict, fund terrorism, fuel human trafficking, but it can also save lives, settle disputes and end hunger. It has a power and magic all of its own, and coins can make a fantastic addition to a spell (but must, must be cleansed first because coins are also very good at picking up energies from people who've touched them, and they're handled by a lot of people). Greed and corruption are the real nasties that give money a bad name, but this has always been an ailment of mankind, yes.. even before we had money.

                              - - - Updated - - -



                              I know of at least two: one in Whitley Bay, and another is in Newcastle, actually directly across the street from a metaphysical store! I think the author was just being selective with the 'facts'.
                              I agree that there are real scammers, it's true. But the banning of selling simple herbs when the seller ISN'T claiming it will do anything special is ridiculous. Physical items should still be purchasable, because technically ANYONE on etsy could be a fraud. They could post a fake picture on the listing and send a plain old penny. Plus, there are people on etsy who sell Christian charms said to keep out the devil or some such thing, but those haven't been taken down. A lot of people feel this is discriminating against one particular religion and practice, and I have to admit I agree.
                              Love me for who I am, not for who you want me to be.

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                                #30
                                Re: Paganism is a religion built upon consumerism?

                                One can have religious medals(crosses,pents,pagan seals,christian saints medals,eyc) I do not understand why if their is no statement it will do "Magic",and yeh some christian sometimes do that(Some TV evangelist will SELL prayer cloths they say will cure things or send wealth your way) So,if it is more jewelry,with no claim of "Magic" ability...then why ban it.
                                MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                                all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                                NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                                don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                                sigpic

                                my new page here,let me know what you think.


                                nothing but the shadow of what was

                                witchvox
                                http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

                                Comment

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