Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

    This is a long ramble-- for those who want to skip the ramble and instead share their own-- feel free to just share your own experience with the mother goddess, great mother, motherly ancestor spirits etc. On to my ramble:
    __________________


    My path connected me with great mother before I learned anything about paganism or even was interested. It started with doing meditations to connect with ancestral memories at the cellular level to create the experience of health as experienced by good times my ancestors have experienced and the cellular behavior, instincts, and wisdoms associated with such. At first I thought great mother was simply an aspect of myself I had connected with- and I still think that is an aspect of what I have connected with-- but along my journey I started to have experiences with a force that felt and behaved as something from beyond myself.

    I even had this experience where I have called on lady thor (yes from fiction) as a real force though not really as lady thor-- I feel I have connected with a deity/ancestor who shares my passion for protecting women from men (and sometimes other womens) abuse and cruelty and exploitation. She has said her name is of course not lady thor, but the people do not remember her. I also call on Korra as a force-friend, even if it's just pulling up an aspect of myself I relate to (and if it arises in my I believe it can arise elsewhere in the world or my ancestors or the universe).

    Dark times came over the germanic people and what we have left is any idea of "the heathens" as being warlike, as celebrating war, as worshipping at the feet of god's that delight in human sacrafice, early death, and who are detached and uncaring about humanity. This is what our ancestors faced so of course they pressumed this is what all the germanic deities and spirits wanted- but I think what we have left of germanic religions does NOT reflect the whole of the thousands of years of humans lives in the germanic and norse lands.

    Great mother is in my heart, and I know her love is deeper than something that just appeared-- I know that love was not invented by Christians and I have had heathens tell me that my beliefs on love are a christian pathology which I think is wrong even by the standards of my own people and ancestors. I KNOW I have had ancestors who believed in compassion as best they could practice it in difficult times. I know they are with me helping me serve compassion now.

    I chose to STOP serving the Christian god because of all the censored said about how "he" (first off is a patriarchal censored who won't let women lead) creates suffering to make lessons and all the other bullshit in christianity I am grossed out by. If there is a god of compassion, I am serving. If the Christian god is serving that, we are of shared purpose and I welcome help from above and to be of service with whatever I can offer.

    But the same as I won't serve a Christian god who is an censored, neither will I serve a heathen pantheon headed by a rapist, death celebrating censored who doesn't care about humanity at all (why did he create us then? Or did he? Is just some censored that invaded and took over the pantheon from Tyr who was actually ruling with justice? Was Odin a human that claimed to be a God as mentioned by some early writers?) I don't even see why Odin would care about being the leader of the gods so far as the humans are concerned, I mean, if he exists in another realm and has nothing to do with us, then why bother to have any awareness of his existence at all? He's just some distant being that has nothing to do with us. I know, at least I feel, there have been good spirits who HAVE cared about the human realms, who have tried to help.

    I wonder if Frigg even is a representation of great mother-- why has she stood by this censored who would mistreat her children so? If we're going to say the stories are all untrue then why use them at all? Why make claims we have ANY knowledge of the gods if we're going to say the stories are all made up? Why take the existence of the gods as literal fact if we are going to then just say all the stories are made up and useless- and why then say certain things from the stories are FACTS about the natures of the gods and certain things are totally wrong?

    I don't believe all my ancestors from the germanic lands, or even that all the tribes from the germanic lands were exploitative thieving censored who would sooner steal, rape, plunder than accept help and mutual aid-- who would rather abandon those in need than work very hard to care for those in need....

    I don't believe the people of the present can speak with such certainty for ALL of our ancestors or the gods associated with them, that they can claim my understanding is false and theirs is right.

    I still wonder if the surviving texts about jainism reflect a phase and connection with peaceful diving beings that happened in multiple times and places of earth realm (egypt had a period where mummies were found to be vegetarian) that there have been beings that want peace for earth realm that have tried to create peaceful spaces in northern europe and elsewhere in the world as well. I think that's the direction we should go rather than celebrating brutality as "natural" and therefore good. Saying things are the way they are therefore means that is "Good" is justifying all manner of horrors that should not be.

    We should BE the force that stands against suffering, not the force that causes and enjoys seeing it happen to others. We have so much potential as a species to be this force, to connect to our inner resources, to connect with new (and old) powers in ourselves and our world and our universe to serve the welfare of beings-- I find it depressing when spiritual teachings are inspiring us to do the opposite and celebrate injuring our fellow beings claiming "they secretly want it" even if they are fighting (why does that sound so familiar, or yeah it's been applied WRONGLY to women by men for centuries).

    Forgiving and understanding the state we are in is one thing but celebrating and reinforcing it is another.

    If the christian god is an censored I am not serving him, and I don't see why I would dare to stand up to such a being that rules through, fear, intimidation, threats of torture or early death-- only to submit to some other tyrant who rules through fear and who his followers themselves tolerate more out of fear and serve more to appease him than because he's worthy of the gig, at least according to some. That's not an "all father" that's an abusive tyrant who should probably move to the side and let someone better do the job. If he wants to fight off bad censored, that's cool but what are you fighting for if with one hand you defend the humans from bad things and with the other you're a fucking monster to them? At that point the humans need protection from you, who will take that gig since you're failing at being a protector? And listening to what heathens have told me about him has only reinforced I have the same problems with this particular violence and cruelty loving censored as I do with the Christian creator god who created all this censored suffering and doesn't seem to bother to do piss all to fix it, aside from permitting "his son" to be tortured- all for nothing because the "messiah" was supposed to bring about the messianic age and we are NOT in the messianic age are we?

    Supposedly, from some claims, Frigg can bring PEACE- can and SHOULD stop Odin from pulling horrible censored like say allowing humans to put themselves at risk of suffering and death by offering to serve Odin without informed consent or Odin say, possessing human beings as sexual servants...

    I was thinking about that while watching Steven Universe and so aptly Garnet says to some guy who has a crush on her something like "You can't love me, you don't even know who are what I am, love takes work and knowing the other person"

    Informed consent between humans and deities that are not explaining and what they are clearly to humans in a way that humans can understand, should not be taking advantage of them sexually- and if humans are ready or able to understand who are what the gods are- then again informed consent can not be given. If some people want to worship God's who do this, then whatever but I will be standing up against that censored especially if it's supposedly being done by MY spiritual family... the spirits of my people and my ancestors. censored THAT.

    If some unknowing young person devotes themselves to Odin without knowing what that means, than that does not count as informed consent. Not to mention consent to suffering before one even knows what the suffering is... that in and of itself is sketchy.

    I guess if the heathen deities are supposed to be so distant as many heathens claim, I don't understand why humans would even count them as part of their religion. I mean surely universe deities are busy doing universe stuff, but it would seem to me if there are deities there would have been regional deities or spirits who be available to beings at the levels of existence they exist. Meaning there would be deities/spirits of the human realms.

    If there are many realms I have to believe there are some good places, places of peace. And places where there are beings who want very much to help beings in need, including earth realm, not to be distant and uncaring.

    I think Odin as a force that belongs in a leadership position needs some cleaning up- whether it's a real him that needs to evolve and grow or heal or whatever-- or whether it's the human perception of what they want to celebrate (and I think we project our shit on our ideas of deities so this is very relevant) and I am finding it hard to connect with or serve Frigg without getting upset with her over the state of Odin as a leader. Outside of war times, we do not lead a warlike death celebrating leader. When possible peace should reign-- if there is any reason to fight it IS to serve this purpose-- if you aren't fighting to bring about a world that doesn't need fighting (or needs it as little as possible) you're just serving injustice and suffering. You ARE the force that needs fighting against.
    Last edited by MaskedOne; 06 Jul 2015, 18:53. Reason: language abuse

    #2
    Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

    I think you have been misinformed by the romanticization of the Heathen people. They were not barbarians. They were not brutes. Sure, they were great fighters, but this fighting was not only for the gods, but their own people. They were farmers, traders, and explorers.
    Odin was not only a God of war, but a god of knowledge and wisdom. He does not smile upon death with a malevolent bloody lust, but he takes care of those who fought and died honorably. He opens his great mead hall to them, and let's them continue to train and fight without worries of the happenings of Midgard.
    As well, you're talking about informed consent. It seems like you don't really have an incling for the history of the viking people. Did they fear death? Absolutely not. They lived the honorable lives described to them through stories and legends. They were content with the idea of dying, but you seem to think death is the worst thing that could happen to someone. People even willingly gave themselves up as sacrifices to the norse gods. They gave consent, and I don't think you realize this.
    Lastly, I do not think my gods are distant. On the contrary, I sense their presence daily. They come to me in my dreams, they send me signs, they watch over us all. Those who say they are distant are not in touch with the Gods as some of the others more devoted to the faith. I felt the need to clarify this.
    I am not saying you are wrong and that I am right. You have your opinions, and I have mine, but mine is backed by history, and first hand experience.
    "In the shade now tall forms are advancing,
    And their wan hands like snowflakes in the moonlight are gleaming;
    They beckon, they whisper, 'Oh! strong armed in valor,
    The pale guests await thee - mead foams in Valhalla.'"
    - Finn's Saga

    http://hoodednorseman.tumblr.com/

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

      I like a lot of your visions. I think I relate to a lot of heathenry and specific heathens ideas about it, but I've had problems with a lot of what is said as "fact" in a lot of places by heathens. I imagine you're aware of the worst places where racism and sexism actively thrives- I have liked the heathen section here and at another larger pagan site, but I notice that many heathen communities skew not only male but also in the direction of celebrating a fighting kind of mean spirited attitude and claiming it's the heathen way.

      All I'm saying is Frigg is a goddess of love and peace as described and as my experience with her and she IS ALSO part of the heathen way. I am pissed that things have skewed to where talking about peace and love in innately mocked and called "christian values".

      I disagree with you about human sacrafice, I think the arguments for it then could be used now and I'd be fighting against that even with consent (I am opposed to hazing and abusing people to be part of the group, and think the group think and social pressure damages consent.) That's a long and, interesting topic, and I don't mean to be offensive by disagreeing--- one thing I do like about heathen crowds is that a bit of disgreement and rough housing is often taken in good humor even if it can get a bit serious and real at times. I can't bow out of having a go at hard topics, so I dig that. The hard topics often matter the most and we shouldn't cower from facing or standing up against injustice even if people will hate or attack or dislike/reject us. Even if I one I love is doing harm, I will fight them with my hands but love them with my heart. I think even if you love someone you will stand up to them when they do wrong, not cower and tolerate their harmful deeds to others for the sake of false "peace" that is innately the oppression of the vulnerable and the thriving of harmful deeds unchallenged.

      I think connection to the will of the god's is unclear and uncertain even when we feel it is real. I have asked for signs when she is with me, and she has appeared in the sky, in the clouds and made rainbows for me. I can't say that she is Frigg-- if Frigg does not serve peace, this would not be her because I feel her devotion to mothers, to children, to human welfare, to justice, to equality, to kindness and comfort, and even to the welfare of animal and plant life and other spirits in our world and beyond.

      She calls me to serve peace, and a violent death is not peace. We should be helping ALL members of the tribe live to see old age. We face difficult things, and in dark times people will resort to worse deeds--- but that doesn't make this the IDEAL, we should be working against such suffering if at all possible. I have experienced the gift of painlessness from the divine-- I know that transition to the next realm can be done with little pain, but for those left behind the ache is more difficult to numb without side effects. The bliss of the divine is not well suited for long term use by mortals.

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

        When we talk about the 'germanic people' we have to remember that there were many different tribes, in many different areas and at many different times. (The same goes for the Celts.) Also we have to ask ourselves, who is doing the describing? How to access that information? Does it apply to ALL or just some of the Germanic tribes? What about Percht or Holle for goddesses?

        Before worrying too much, remember that the deeper we dig, the clearer the picture.
        www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


        Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

          Your words are a comfort Tylluan.

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

            There is also something that I feel you are forgetting, with allowing yourself to get wrapped up in the thoughts, ideas, experiences, interpretations, and "truths" of others. You are failing to understand that those are the <list from above> of OTHERS. They are not the experiences that YOU have had with the deities in question. Do not allow yourself to be swayed in a direction that others feel you should be. Take the time to meet the gods on YOUR and THEIR terms, not on those created by outside parties. I do not feel that the deities of the Northern Traditions are distant and uncaring, but then again, that is based off of what I have experienced.

            Remember, those that have an agenda tend to be the loudest, and also tend to be the minority in every group or religion. White supremacists yell, shout, march, and complain, twisting the words and beliefs of both Christianity and the Northern Traditions to suit their ends, just as the insular, militant members of Islam do. They are not the majority, nor do their thoughts reflect those of the majority, but that is hard to see due to the attention that they draw upon themselves.

            You are YOU, and only YOU can know how your relationship with the divine will be.

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

              The quote below is the forum reg regarding profanity in public sections of the board.

              Originally posted by thalassa View Post
              Profanity

              • We would like to keep the forum as free as possible of unnecessary profanity. There are certain sections that we give more leeway. For instance, the Rants section. However, the majority of the public forums should be considered at a PG-13 rating. The Pagan Forum Staff reserves the right to edit language that we deem excessive or unnecessarily out of context.

              This is not cursing rants. Yes, limited use of minor profanity is tolerated but keep it limited. SAFE is relatively judgement free in that members are expected to handle newbie issues with restraint and courtesy or stay out. It is not exempt from forum rules.
              life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

              Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

              "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

              John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

              "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

              Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


              Comment


                #8
                Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

                This is meant to be a general rant isn't it? I mean, if you wanted to actually discuss why Odin is the way he is and why the Aesir put up with the way he is then we have a Heathen board.

                Other than that, why in Life's name are you treating Odin as the penultimate power in Norse mythos? The driving Powers of that cosmology are the Norns. Odin goes to insane lengths to try and overcome one of their rulings and all for nothing. Mere gods are not able to alter their rulings. Odin can't undo suffering for Midgard. He can't even save Asgard when he knows what's coming. Frigg is just as powerless to overrule Fate as her husband. Both of them attempt to accomplish their own goals within the confines of what the Norns weave but they can't force a change no matter how much they might wish to.

                Comment


                  #9
                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunnin...3Kruger_effect).

                  It's taken me a little while to do as Munin-Hugin said: "Do not allow yourself to be swayed in a direction that others feel you should be. Take the time to meet the gods on YOUR and THEIR terms, not on those created by outside parties". In fact I agree with everything he said. Some people dismiss upg and derisively call it "mus" - made up shit. I don't think all upg is mus. What I personally consider mus is if someone has figures of Chris Hemsworth, Tom Hiddleston and/or Sir Anthony Hopkins as Thor, Loki, Odin, respectively, in their shrine and worships them as the real deities. But that's just my take on it. If it brings someone close to the Gods, who am I to judge? Just don't bring that up at reddit.com/r/asatru/. :devilish:



                  śivāya vishnu rūpaya śivaḥ rūpaya vishnave
                  śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

                    Yes I realize this could have fit in the rant section perhaps-- but I feel like this is a part of myself, the experiences and spirits associated with my ancestors live within me, at least their influence and memories does... so unlike other random cultures I don't agree with, it's personal.

                    I'm finding it hard to want to invite beings in my life who actually existed, knew that rape and slavery and violence and inequality were happening and weren't doing anything about it or offering inspiration to religious leaders trying to communicate with the divine to do something about it.

                    I'm angry that there is so much suffering in earth realm and there don't seem to be any active deities or spirits working against it because THAT is what I want to serve and the reason I am willing to connect with other spiritual beings. And the same as I feel betrayed by my grandmother who stayed with a sexual abuser who abused the children-- I feel betrayed if my great mother is staying with or supporting a being that is willing to abuse humans- if those stories are true or testimonies from people who say they are Odin's "sex slaves" or whatever are true.

                    And I can't just walk away from it because it feels like a family matter. And it is. Why have the men in my family been abusing the women for so long? Have the deities actually supported this in earth realm? How did this get to be so built into earth realm? And how do we repair it?

                    - - - Updated - - -

                    Thanks for letting me know about the language, I will be careful about language in the future.

                    - - - Updated - - -

                    Thorbjorn-- I like what you say. I think, I sort of wonder since it was HUMANS who wrote down the remaining stories we have, I wonder if even the older texts are also polluted with misunderstandings and misuse of claims of divine decree for their own selfish pursuits same as we see now. I wonder if those who made claims the gods were violent and supported inequality be divine will weren't THEMSELVES defying the true nature of the gods.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

                      People aren't perfect.

                      And neither are the gods. For many Pagans, its not about perfection.



                      Projecting your modernist idea of right and wrong onto an idea that is born of a time where different things were right and wrong is fraught with folly, as is projecting divine blame on your family.

                      People are people. We are human. And biologically, humans are animals. We do things that don't make sense on a "higher" morality because we aren't all part of some "higher" morality...such a thing doesn't exist.



                      IMO: Gods "exist", but the idea that they are some idealized human-like being is OUR projection of them, not THEM as they ARE.
                      The god you "talk" to or "worship"--that's you projecting your desires on them...its an illusion. Myths aren't literal. They are a really long game of telephone. Expecting them to behave like perfectly forward thinking progressive humans is...well, that's your projection, and one you are bound to be disappointed by.
                      Last edited by thalassa; 07 Jul 2015, 07:26.
                      Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                      sigpic

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

                        The deities of Heathenism are not omnipotent or omniscient. They are bound by the laws of the universe, of orlog and their own wryd. It's not that they don't intervene, they often can't. Then there are times when they do intervene. And what about the seeming miracles that do occur? We forget those and only remember and blame the gods for the bad things. But they suffer too, it's the way of the world. Forseti lost both his parents at once; Frigga and Odin lost their son; Magni, Modi and Thrud will lose their father, and Sif her husband, Frigga will lose her husband. To say "it's God's will" or "the will of the Gods" is an Abrahamic approach.
                        śivāya vishnu rūpaya śivaḥ rūpaya vishnave
                        śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

                          I know, I used to come up imperfection with the idea of understanding and accepting everything--- the problem is that doing so means allowing a LOT of suffering under the guise of "hey everyone is imperfect".

                          I think tolerating abusers is a problem that should be changed rather than assumed an understandable part of human nature. I don't believe in cultural immunity. If people are suffering, you either have empathy for that and try to undo it (IF POSSIBLE granted it is not always, but you can at least look for a way to change it) or you can support it and ignore it and write it into your culture as a way of life. I think every community and individual should look at patterns and behaviors that are causing suffering to members of the community and look for ways that address that.

                          I think addressing the suffering in cultural patterns is actually something many communities have been trying to do for thousands of years- so that idea itself is also "perfectly natural".

                          I've actually worked really hard to stop being so accepting of people's actions that harm and abuse others. I think you can have compassion for the fact that people (and divine beings perhaps) are not perfect, but also feel a strong duty to protecting innocent beings from harm rather than siding with the comfort of those doing the harm.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

                            I didn't say that you should allow suffering because people are imperfect.
                            Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                            sigpic

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg


                              "I believe they are worthy of worship, not because they are perfect, but because they are gloriously imperfect. They balance each other, watch the boundaries, step in and correct each other when necessary"

                              I guess to me this is exactly what I am thinking about when I am thinking more evidence of Frigg's protective and nurturing and peace loving presence is something I don't see as much of in heathenry. I guess the lesson is to avoid heathen communities because they are to me, very imbalanced in this regard with people telling me things like that peace is dangerous and ruins communities (ABSOLUTE peace, sure but trying a peaceful way first seems ideal).

                              I guess I just think in good times, it should be Frigg's way of peace and love that reigns, were Odin's leadership would make more sense during times of scarcity famine, war or attacks by scary spirits etc.

                              I know I am rambly and I appreciete all who are talking to me, I spent a long time trying to read in heathen forums searching for pacifists and kindness and turning up empty-- so it's really soothing for me to hear others voices on this that don't reflect the experiences with heathen following people that have been really unpleasant for me.

                              I've also been having a very intense spiritual journey for the last two years with no one to talk to about it so there's so many jumbled thoughts. I know it's not fun to read, but it's really helpful for me to share some of my jumbled thoughts and hear others ideas. My thoughts in general are a work in progress, I really don't understand who or what the divine is other than that I've had some intense experiences that have lead me think wait... do you mean you are REAL like REAL beings out there? ACK!!!! And there's no real way to know what is or isn't real even the guides other people write or explore or heavy on UPG which I think is often purely personal though occasionally might actually contain connections with divine beings. I don't know how you would ever know the difference aside from multiple people witnessing.

                              - - - Updated - - -

                              "avoid heathen communities" I mean specifically the ones I've found so far. the smaller subsites like this one here I have enjoyed the heathen section and it's been a relief.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X