Let's create a (hypothetically) perfect nation

[Norse_Angel]

Re: Let's create a (hypothetically) perfect nation

Well take a look at Norway, they are the closest example we can find of real Marxism, only with capitalism interbreed within the society. I think socialism and capitalism alone will crumble eventually. Once integrated together, you will find the greatest governmental creation we have yet to see.

[anunitu]

Re: Let's create a (hypothetically) perfect nation

I remember at work someone arguing about socialism in America,and I had to mention social security(and remember the person with the sign "Keep your government hands off my social security" I think that was a Tea party thing)

[Domtar]

Re: Let's create a (hypothetically) perfect nation

I love this idea and believe in it.

I think one way to achieve this would be to create voluntary alliances of small communities who essentially create their own chosen codes and preferences for interacting. I think thalassa's idea for the larger structure is most sustainable, don't expect perfection- but don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Neither let the lack of ability to achieve perfection allow us to become jaded and give up entirely on trying to create what is good albeit not perfect.

If smaller networks of people tried to create local supportive communities- then you could have a variety of structures with different bents within various cities. I think the hard part is that small communities are hard to build and sustain. I think having larger structures that create some stability for the smaller structures to vary from (i.e. like how the UU church is often the home for pagan activities because pagans have smaller numbers and a harder time creating unified sets of codes and values that would actually unite us enough to want to hang out with each other on the regular).

I actually think this is a project we can work on building the structure for if we focus on doing through networking and community building more than through forced laws (though I do believe in using law to prevent injustice of either the majority toward the minority or the minority to the majority as well as the individual to the individual). But while the law can stop some degree of injustice, you don't get a truly flourishing community from force but from people who truly believe in something bigger than themselves choosing to work for it. And yeah, that sort of does mean membership needs to involve some measure of chosen commitment- which does leave the decidion of what to do with people who don't contribute. If being part of the community is a loosely defined thing, that could be rememdied somewhat by having a small degree of charity the group with do simply for local people who live in the area for no other reason than being human (contributing to homeless shelters, free drug and mental health rehab, food for the hungry etc.) and let that be set to an amount the community feels it has in excess... other aspects of being a member to the community will involve more commitments- however may be tailored to the persons individual circumstance and skillsets. Some people may have disabilities that limit commitments but a small contribution from them can go a long way. People believe in something more when they are working for it and it's fine to have certain requirements as decided per communities toward having access to the network of support built by the community. You could even give those with disabilities tasks like creating sacred jewelry, helping in a garden, or things they could do in a self paced way. People often like to contribute when their obstacles to contributing are taken into account (some people struggle with timeliness, with endurance, with physical limitations, with times of emotional problems that make reliability hard etc but may have strengths and assets in other areas). I think commune ideas tend to get messy because like no person is an island, no community is an island either. The larger community and laws to create balance bewteen diverse communities and individuals are needed, as is a larger structure of more impersonal support. Some in communities, like some families, get really toxic, sick or disabled ant serving their own- and the disabled and in need among them have no where to turn.

[Munin-Hugin]

Re: Let's create a (hypothetically) perfect nation

A perfect society, with no conflict, with peace, with ... Okay, we know the deal. It will never happen, and in fact it cannot happen. Both biologically and psychologially, we and all other species on the planet are hardwired to be competitive by nature. Without the need to survive and the drive to become "better", life stagnated and eventually will die out. It is through violence and change and conflict that has created the world as it is and will continue to shape it in the future, from microscopic organisms to plants to humans. We simply cannot exist without being adversarial.

But, it it were true ... No sports figure should ever make more than someone who saves lives for a living ...

And in a perfect world, Firefly would never have been cancelled.

[Domtar]

Re: Let's create a (hypothetically) perfect nation

I think just as at the cellular level, healthy bodies have a certain amount of capacity to generate instinctual health, so too healthy people have better instincts and behaviors and wisdom toward building healthy communities. IF you're looking at the ayurvedic view of health disturbance, periods of rapid change, trauma or duress can knock us out of balance at the individual or intergeneral level-- and communites are subject to these patterns as well. Healing inter-generational trauma that whole communities have faced is as important as healing the damages we have accrued in our lives and that we may have been given at birth. Interestingly what we are finding with epigenetics and studies like the ACES sturdy is that trauma/famine/war, abuse really do damage our physical bodies and can be passed on multiple generations. This gives a great deal of information about how important it is we care for those in need, protect the vulnerable, and ensure access to food, safe environments, and housing stability for our people and how huge the returns in healthy emotionally in tact people can be.
I do think on the other end of abundance is the human tendency to get disconnected from caring about others, and teaching empathy and critical thinking and compassion building, as well as demonstrating it, needs to be part of building healthy communities.

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: Let's create a (hypothetically) perfect nation

You obsessing about the Donald again Hawk???

That reminds me, the 2nd half of his interview with Anderson Cooper is on tonight. I guess they figured showing it all at once would be just too much!

[thalassa]

Re: Let's create a (hypothetically) perfect nation

I think just as at the cellular level, healthy bodies have a certain amount of capacity to generate instinctual health, so too healthy people have better instincts and behaviors and wisdom toward building healthy communities.

Not only is there completely and utterly no evidence of this, I'm pretty sure if I bothered that I could find quite a bit of evidence against it. Even on a metaphorical level, I think this is not only completely and utterly untrue but unhelpful and quite possibly damaging. This is the sort of thinking that shames and blames disabled and/or chronically ill people. This is also the sort of thinking that marginalizes anyone that doesn't fit their concept of health. And, to make this purely about personal opinions, its been my experienced that people who haven't suffered physical or mental illness and/or trauma lack empathy and compassion for wide swathes of the human experience.

[Seax_Blade]

Re: Let's create a (hypothetically) perfect nation

I would like to thank everyone for their replies.

I definitely understand and acknowledge that having a so-called "perfect" society or country (and I was using "perfect" or of loosely too), a utopia is basically impossible. Heck, that was pretty much found out at least by several hundred years BC with Plato's Republic (if there are similar texts but earlier, out there, then cool)

[Domtar]

Re: Let's create a (hypothetically) perfect nation

I think we are in agreement that "on the other end of abundance is the human tendency to get disconnected from caring about others, and teaching empathy and critical thinking and compassion building, as well as demonstrating it, needs to be part of building healthy communities."

Which I stated earlier.
That said, this is a great topic and I can point to a huge swath of literature in which we find that trauma and abuse and poverty lead to damage in cognition, functioning, emotionally stability and the capacity to carry out prosocial behaviors.

http://www.alternet.org/personal-health/doctor-childhood-trauma-can-destroy-your-health-decades-later-yet-america-ignores-it

http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2015/06/18/how-us-mental-health-system-makes-natives-sick-and-suicidal-160777

http://www.nature.com/news/behaviour-and-biology-the-accidental-epigeneticist-1.14441

There are plenty of people who, while healthy, choose to be assholes. However there's a large portion of people who are damaged and are not even given a chance at a healthy start from which to make the decision, they may learn aggression, or even have aggression and anti-scoial behaviors triggered at the biological level because they have to to survive. These are people our communities are creating and they are not at fault for it in the same way a healthy person is freely choosing to disregard the welfare of others simply because they can.

The solutions to people who are healthy choosing to be assholes involve teaching lessons in empathy and compassion in families and school systems and holding our commuitiy members and peers accountable for how they treat others as well as creating legal checks and balances on abuse of power.

The solution for people who are reared in unhealthy condition or is still affected by ancestral damaging experiences is to provide supports and healing against poverty and trauma, as well as ensuring our children are given stable healthy environments (which is a multifaceted process).

[anunitu]

Re: Let's create a (hypothetically) perfect nation

The thing one MUST remember is peace and love remain as long as resources(food,water,shelter,etc) are abundant. There have been periods when food became scarce,water was not safe to drink..and also when money was mostly worthless(it was cheaper to burn money than to buy wood)..and there were acts of murder and Cannibalism in some very dark parts of history.

At times I think we may be just a few meals away from becoming animals in fact rather than just it being our source.

- - - Updated - - -

I remember this cartoon as a kid,where two characters are stranded on a boat with no food,and one looking at the other ans seeing them roasted like a pig with an apple in their mouth..and that was a kids cartoon..and reflected just how close humans are to our animal roots.

[Norse_Angel]

Re: Let's create a (hypothetically) perfect nation

I'm pretty sure it was Anunitu who posted the documentary, but figuring we won't last another two centuries, a perfect society is simply impossible to develop in the time we have. With this being said, I declare we need another world war, led by Marxist who would kill any and all corrupt people, forcefully instilling a new utopia of prime socialism.

[anunitu]

Re: Let's create a (hypothetically) perfect nation

That movie was concerning global climate change,and the path of destruction we may not be able to find a way to stop.

[Norse_Angel]

Re: Let's create a (hypothetically) perfect nation

Yeah I know, I enjoyed it highly. Thanks for sharing.

[Munin-Hugin]

Re: Let's create a (hypothetically) perfect nation

From a personal opinion, I do NOT want a Utopian society. By nature, I am a competitive, periodically aggressive, sometimes lazy and gluttonous, and slightly self centered individual who is perfectly happy and accepting of those socially designated "negative" traits. That is not to say that I do not love deeply, feel compassion for others and animals (so much for animals), am loved in return, who enjoys working hard. I am driven by chaos and disarray, and feel that only during times of stress can we truly come to know ourselves and others. As was said in an episode of Firefly "Live with a man 40 years. Share his house, his meals. Speak on every subject. Then tie him up, and hold him over the volcano's edge. And on that day, you will finally meet the man."

Many people see Utopia as a paradise where no one wants for anything, all needs and desires are provided (within reason, as long as it doesn't harm anyone else), and everything is super duper okay. If you get whatever you want/need, it loses it's importance, what makes it special. "You cannot truly understand the Sun if you never see the Moon." If I work my butt off, the guy next to me works his butt off, and the guy next to him takes it easy, but at the end of the day we all still get what we want, why bother working so hard if the results will be the same?

Keep your ultimate peace, your perfect world. I'd rather not languish and lose sight of why things are special and important, even if it means that I have to struggle and work at it. At least then I know that I am going to better myself and have a goal to strive for.

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: Let's create a (hypothetically) perfect nation

The thing one MUST remember is peace and love remain as long as resources(food,water,shelter,etc) are abundant. There have been periods when food became scarce,water was not safe to drink..and also when money was mostly worthless(it was cheaper to burn money than to buy wood)..and there were acts of murder and Cannibalism in some very dark parts of history.

At times I think we may be just a few meals away from becoming animals in fact rather than just it being our source.

- - - Updated - - -

I remember this cartoon as a kid,where two characters are stranded on a boat with no food,and one looking at the other ans seeing them roasted like a pig with an apple in their mouth..and that was a kids cartoon..and reflected just how close humans are to our animal roots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyHoK9RVIrw