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    Let's create a (hypothetically) perfect nation

    Okay, so I wasn't sure if I wanted to put this here or in the debate section. Seemed like it could go either way.

    The idea of utopia isn't new of course. The word itself is based off the Greek, ου "no/not" + τοπος "place." Which is why this is all hypothetical.

    What I propose though, is that a so-called perfect nation would be based in large part on these three things: equality, responsibility, and love.

    Equality is broken down into marriage equality, religious equality, etc. Pretty self-explanatory.
    Responsibility is broken down into personal responsibility, familial responsibility, and societal responsibility.
    Love I say could practically void laws.

    Perhaps equality hits on a more macro scale, whereas responsibility, I think, could make the country great starting at such a small level, the individual would affect the family in a good way would affect more families in a good way would affect whole societies in a good way would affect the nation in a good way. On the other hand, I feel that a lack of responsibility can fracture people's understandings of sections of society, creating stereotypes where the overwhelming majority are misjudged based on the irresponsibility of a few. In our society currently there are instances where we are reminded of this, that the actions of a few bad apples don't reflect the majority. yet in other instances I feel that society contradicts itself and perpetuates such stereotypes.

    Love. If people in this contrived country of ours would love one another, then I think it would pretty much destroy the need for laws or much legal convention. There'd be no motive for crime, and thus no reason for written down laws and no reason to have law enforcement. Laws and the like would basically be irrelevant, they basically wouldn't even need to be spoken or debated about. Theoretically. And if everyone was accepting that everyone is equal, then loving each other would be much easier.

    But then you get into more difficult things. So we have our country. What happens if we got a billion people from around the world all trying to get in at once, and we can't support them all. I guess we'd have to start being selective. But how do we do that? Admit who is the 'most qualified' (best able to support themselves and community, most productive to economy, etc)? But how do we define that, and furthermore what if it happens that x amount of y people are accepted but not x amount of z people because those y people would be 'best,' and the z people accuse us of discrimination? This is something that seems to be a bit harder when it comes to being perfect.

    Of course who knows who may fancy our land, but not for immigration, rather for conquering. We may not be interested in war, but war may be interested in us. Perhaps a somewhat small professional army combined with a significant portion of the population being comfortable in the operation of firearms would be a good option. I saw something awhile ago that said "at the time of the first world war, Switzerland had a tiny standing army, but a populace of skilled riflemen. In 1912, Kaiser Wilhelm II asked what a militia of a quarter million Swiss would do if he invaded with an army of half a million Germans. Their response? 'Shoot twice and go home.'" This way we avoid the potential for too much military spending while still being able to put up a fight (hopefully). Exact location could make a difference too; terrain, for instance, and also allies. But still. A potential enemy having to not just worry about the military, but much of the population of our country to boot, might reconsider. Meanwhile that 'much of the population' is doing their normal jobs productive to the economy and all. But if need be they'll put down their tools to "shoot twice" and go back home (or, shoot however many times they're outnumbered by I guess )

    Now it seems to me like with the population being responsible, liking each other, and supporting each other, the government wouldn't be terribly involved. You may label me/this as something from the American political right, but think, doesn't it make sense that if society can already figure itself out in many aspects, the government doesn't need to intervene as much? Maybe they'd need to fund some stuff, sure. But they wouldn't tell you in a more direct way how to run yourself.

    It's getting late here and I could probably ramble on for years talking about this, bringing in things from Plato's Republic for instance, but I must cut myself off here.

    Once again, any effort like this would probably fail right quick. I guess that coming up with "what" we'd want this hypothetical country to be is the easy part, "how" to execute it is the tricky (understatement) part.


    Just note that if it were to be a place like Rapture from Bioshock, I'd just put a self destruct feature in it. Things start getting out of hand...MMKAYBAI!

    Besides, I kind of don't like going over bridges or walking out onto piers, not sure I could handle living on the bottom of the ocean.

    #2
    Re: Let's create a (hypothetically) perfect nation

    I don't think it's possible, to be honest. That's not to say that we can't come up with a fair and just society, but perfection can't happen because what is "perfect" is different for all people.

    Different countries have different values, so that's a tricky one right off the bat. And even within countries, you don't really get a consensus. For example, I'm a democratic socialist with green leanings. I'll vote for the Left party or the Green party in Germany depending on who the local candidate is and what the party's platforms are (we get two votes here, so both of those matter) and I'll almost always vote NDP in Canada. I believe in building comprehensive state-run social services and in the state taking control of key services such as rail transport, ferry transport, electricity, water, and anything else deemed essential for the majority of the population. I believe that all education and health care should be publicly funded and run. I think progressive taxation is the key to achieving this and is the key to a just and fair society. HOWEVER, even within Germany and Canada, there is a large chunk of the population that would strongly disagree with me.

    To use another example, you mention a good portion of the population being comfortable in the operation of firearms. Personally, I do not want to live in a country where people keep guns, and I certainly don't want one myself. To me, that is a wholly "American" idea and is totally foreign. I grew up in Canada...guns are not for defense; they're for hunting deer. That view is even stronger in Germany (where I've lived for a decade), as we have so much less scare-mongering about terrorism and crime and such here.

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      #3
      Re: Let's create a (hypothetically) perfect nation

      Utopia in three simple steps:

      Make a program that creates and measures complex simulated societies. Run simulations until we have a pretty good idea of what circumstances and variables lead to the most positive results for the most people over the longest period. Recreate those circumstances and variables in the real world.
      Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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        #4
        Re: Let's create a (hypothetically) perfect nation

        No such thing as Utopia or a perfect nation.

        1) Priorities compete. Not all equality is equal to people, as we should easily be able to tell in the aftermath of the Supreme Court decision.
        2) Responsibilities conflict one another--my family comes before yours, I come before you, and to hell with everything else. Maybe my town/village/state/whatever comes before yours too. (not saying this is what I believe, but its the human nature)
        3) Once you start talking about "selecting" people that are (whatever quality), you are talking about making basic human rights into priveleges. Subsistence is not a privelege (which is what happens when "we can't support them all).

        Ideally I'd like a nation whose priorities are the most good for the most people while preserving the most liberty. One with an educated citizenry that could pay attention to something more important than the Kardashians and the sports scores. One that put drinkable water, breathable air, and sustainable land use above private jets, yachts, and mansions. One where people actually looked at data to inform their opinions, rather than using their opinions to cherry pick their data, or where they ignore it all together.

        I'd settle for making voting incentivised and/or mandatory (and "abstain" should absolutely be a valid choice).
        Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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          #5
          Re: Let's create a (hypothetically) perfect nation

          You can only create heaven for one person by tossing someone else in hell, and then pretend they aren't there. This is why so many people look back to a golden age in America where minorities suffered such abuse.

          Closest you can get to Utopia is what Thalassa suggested.
          Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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            #6
            Re: Let's create a (hypothetically) perfect nation

            If you look to history,some people tried to make what was their vision of utopia,the names we remember do not stand out as heroes,Pol Pot wanted to create his vision of perfect,and many died from his attempt at making HIS vision come true. People forget that their personal vision may not come even close to the vision of the majority of people.

            You can read about Pol Pot Here.
            http://www.history.com/topics/pol-pot
            MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

            all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
            NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
            don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




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            my new page here,let me know what you think.


            nothing but the shadow of what was

            witchvox
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              #7
              Re: Let's create a (hypothetically) perfect nation

              You mentioned love, and how it should supercede all else. What about those who love someone or something so much that they are willing to commit atrocities for them? A man loves his wife, and he does so with every ounce of his being and is willing to do anything for her. Therefore, the diamond ring that this other woman has would make his wife happy, so he goes out and kills the woman to steal the ring. By your statement of "would pretty much destroy the need for laws". Try to explain that to the man who just lost HIS wife because someone else wanted her ring. That would then lead the hurt man to strike out and kill the other out of vengeful love for his lost bride.

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                #8
                Re: Let's create a (hypothetically) perfect nation

                Love is far over rated. Respect is much better.

                And just plain "like" would lead to more stable marriages...
                Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                  #9
                  Re: Let's create a (hypothetically) perfect nation

                  I agree that love is over-used to the point where it means nothing.
                  So I would suggest compassion instead.
                  www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                  Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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                    #10
                    Re: Let's create a (hypothetically) perfect nation

                    Have any of you seen the Leonardo DiCaprio/Tilda Swinton move "The Beach"? It's a marvelous insight into what happens when people try to set up a utopian community. Besides love, compassion, respect, etc., the human psyche holds jealousy, fear, the need for power, and various other things we simply can't wish away.
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                    Can you hear me, Major Tom? I think I love you.

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                      #11
                      Re: Let's create a (hypothetically) perfect nation

                      Soviet Union without dictatorship.
                      In the eyes of Marx, and his manifesto, he made the perfect ideological Country. But, it could never work, for greed is the poison which leads to death and corruption. Enough said.

                      Norway on the other hand is as perfect a country you can get.

                      - - - Updated - - -

                      On another note; "MERICA is the greatest darn nation to ever come round ever. We got freedoms, fast food, and God on our side. I forgot to mention Guns and freedom. Oh, and God and Fox News."
                      "In the shade now tall forms are advancing,
                      And their wan hands like snowflakes in the moonlight are gleaming;
                      They beckon, they whisper, 'Oh! strong armed in valor,
                      The pale guests await thee - mead foams in Valhalla.'"
                      - Finn's Saga

                      http://hoodednorseman.tumblr.com/

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                        #12
                        Re: Let's create a (hypothetically) perfect nation

                        ^^^ Lots of societal constructs are great in the conceptual stage, including Capitalism....but look at what happens when real, not hypothetical, people get into the mix.
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                        Can you hear me, Major Tom? I think I love you.

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                          #13
                          Re: Let's create a (hypothetically) perfect nation

                          You obsessing about the Donald again Hawk???
                          MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                          all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                          NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                          don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                          sigpic

                          my new page here,let me know what you think.


                          nothing but the shadow of what was

                          witchvox
                          http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

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                            #14
                            Re: Let's create a (hypothetically) perfect nation

                            Absolutely. And real socialism would see a governmental "God" amongst other countries. Far more superior than Capitalism. But as I said, greed is a destructive thing. Marx's Manifesto really just creates a realistic utopia, but when you get those of the likes of Stalin, and Lenin, two insane, power hungry individuals, it is easily molded to benefit only the higher ups or the bourgeoisie.
                            "In the shade now tall forms are advancing,
                            And their wan hands like snowflakes in the moonlight are gleaming;
                            They beckon, they whisper, 'Oh! strong armed in valor,
                            The pale guests await thee - mead foams in Valhalla.'"
                            - Finn's Saga

                            http://hoodednorseman.tumblr.com/

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                              #15
                              Re: Let's create a (hypothetically) perfect nation

                              Well well,I am gonna say surprise surprise...as Gomer Pyle used to say...but not really surprise because it is the nature of humans to screw paradise up,every time...
                              MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                              all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                              NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                              don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                              sigpic

                              my new page here,let me know what you think.


                              nothing but the shadow of what was

                              witchvox
                              http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

                              Comment

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