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    #1

    Alpha Centauri...

    So I totally love the game, wish they could do with it what they did with Civilization. Hell, I still have it on disk to play on an old computer (it doesn't like anything after Vista)...but this thread isn't about that.


    So, we've found Earth 2. And, lets just say we've found FTL travel. You are the leader of the Earth's expedition to...lets just rename it Terra Prime. And, while we are at it, lets say that it is Earth-like enough that we can terraform it and live there. Lets give it less water and more land mass, which *should* cause more extreme variability of climate.


    What are your priorities? What challenges do you forsee? What do you think will happen in the evolution of human culture and biology?

    How does religion change?
    Last edited by thalassa; 24 Jul 2015, 05:21.
    Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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    #2
    Re: Alpha Centauri...

    This is mundo interesting, and I will have to be back as I think more.

    But let me throw out one item that I think will be totally unforeseen by most people -

    The first groups of colonists will be working in total survival mode (unless machines are sent first to build everything the first colonists will need, and establish all necessary infrastructure ranging from resource management to transportation - this is my preferred method, FYI).

    Because of this, those first colonists will form a super, over-the-top, ultras-tight communities... tighter than any community that has existed on earth for many thousands of years.

    Before anybody starts holding hands and singing Kumbuya and thinking "Wow, this is a good thing," please consider: this also means that conformity to group norms and standards will also be strictly enforced, out of necessity, and this will establish patterns of prejudice that will continue for thousands of years - long after the need for absolute conformity has passed.
    Last edited by B. de Corbin; 24 Jul 2015, 05:28. Reason: Fix for clarity
    Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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      #3
      Re: Alpha Centauri...

      There is also the idea(as shown in SYFY movies) they will become a separate culture as in no connection to us. If there is no FTL ability to communicate,then they would begin to create their own history,and US might become myth to the 10th generation there.
      MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

      all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
      NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
      don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




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        #4
        Re: Alpha Centauri...

        All things aside just imagine if a humanoid life form already developed there? Seem's we always start out assuming we will be the developing and changing force though our own world explorations show us over and over seldom are we the first ones there. If it is that Earth like and holds so many earth like qualities then why not an equal development of a humanoid species?
        I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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          #5
          Re: Alpha Centauri...

          Thal's post posits FTL travel, they do have connection to Earth. Thal, what's travel time to Terra Prime?
          life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

          Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

          "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

          John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

          "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

          Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


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            #6
            Re: Alpha Centauri...

            I suspect that, if we can find a planet that lies within reasonable parameters, it will be far easier and cost efficient to form ourselves to fit the planet than to terraform the planet to fit us.

            In this case, humans will voluntarily divide themselves into different species.
            Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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              #7
              Re: Alpha Centauri...

              Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
              Thal's post posits FTL travel, they do have connection to Earth. Thal, what's travel time to Terra Prime?
              Hmmm...its 1400 years at light speed...I was going to figure out a legit (using Star Trek) warp speed...but lets just go with 1.4 years.


              Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
              All things aside just imagine if a humanoid life form already developed there? Seem's we always start out assuming we will be the developing and changing force though our own world explorations show us over and over seldom are we the first ones there. If it is that Earth like and holds so many earth like qualities then why not an equal development of a humanoid species?

              Lets just say not.

              Drake's equation being what it is, the proximity of Terra Prime to ours makes two intelligent humanoid type species unlikely. Intelligent life is slightly more likely, and life in general a lot more likely. Also, with 2 billion more years to have evolved than we have, they should be the ones with FTL travel, visiting us already. But either way, if there is a humanoid intelligent life form, if they occupied a different niche than us, I don't see it being a problem.

              ...though I'm sure we'll manage to either kill 'em, subjegate 'em, or die trying, when we do find them.
              Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                #8
                Re: Alpha Centauri...

                Depending on how far in the future something like this happens (and considering the exponential speed of technological advancement, I could easily see something like this in the next 200-300 years if we don't kill each other first or starve in a global drought...which is good because we'll likely be loosing our magnetosphere by then, hopefully we can manage to solve that problem too), I can see a number of possibilities...

                I think the sooner this is possibly, the more "roughing it" there is. Living in pods and out of spacesuits, etc. Our limits of tolerance for different oxygen and temperature mixes is quite limited...radiation is an issue. What about water? Maybe it needs to be desalinated, or melted or melted and desalinated or otherwise dechemicaled...maybe its a desert planet or an icy planet.

                Depending on who gets there first, is it a Russian planet? An American or Chinese or whatever planet? Or do we work things out and its just a human planet?
                Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                  #9
                  Re: Alpha Centauri...

                  That's just scratching the surface, lightly.

                  What happens to human reproduction/gestation/development through puberty (and beyond) in a place with gravity of .5 more or less than earth normal? Or where the ambient average radiation is .5% more or less than earth average? When there is more of chemical X in the atmosphere, or less?

                  We would need multigenerational studies to even begin to know... pretty much everything we know about biology (human and otherwise) is based on the assumption of "earth average."

                  What happens when we move to "earth 2 average" is, right now, mainly speculation.

                  - - - Updated - - -

                  Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                  ...But either way, if there is a humanoid intelligent life form, if they occupied a different niche than us, I don't see it being a problem.

                  ...though I'm sure we'll manage to either kill 'em, subjegate 'em, or die trying, when we do find them.
                  This is why I prefer "humanoforming" to "terraforming."

                  Assuming a planet is a barren rock, terraforming might be an option.

                  But, if there is any life whatsoever, the first step in terraforming would almost certainly total planetary sterilization. Terraforming on a sterile planet would be infinitely complex (we do not even understand earth ecology very well yet). Add even a single microorganism and the complexity increases to infinity2.

                  If we are to be good citizens of the galaxy, we have to learn to live with others, not force others to learn to live with us.

                  I hope that by the time this becomes possible those who choose to go off-world will have developed the wisdom to avoid the mistakes we have made on earth. This may sound foolishly optimistic, but I believe it is possible.

                  Not likely, but possible.
                  Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                    #10
                    Re: Alpha Centauri...

                    That is a large problem,making sure that those that go are "Rational" and would not have "Hidden agendas" while in transit. I remember a SF book about life on a spaceship that was traveling in what would be so long,that several generations would be born and die during the duration of the trip. The story had something of what became a myth structure passed down by word of mouth,even though they had recorded history.
                    MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                    all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                    NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                    don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                    sigpic

                    my new page here,let me know what you think.


                    nothing but the shadow of what was

                    witchvox
                    http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

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                      #11
                      Re: Alpha Centauri...

                      Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                      That's just scratching the surface, lightly.

                      What happens to human reproduction/gestation/development through puberty (and beyond) in a place with gravity of .5 more or less than earth normal? Or where the ambient average radiation is .5% more or less than earth average? When there is more of chemical X in the atmosphere, or less?

                      We would need multigenerational studies to even begin to know... pretty much everything we know about biology (human and otherwise) is based on the assumption of "earth average."

                      What happens when we move to "earth 2 average" is, right now, mainly speculation.

                      Maybe it would be possibly to expand the ranges at which we can maintain homeostasis. TBH, to some extent, we are already better than this than pretty much other organism through our technology.


                      IMO: We should be going for SeaQuest before Star Trek--it will teach us more about building long term, sustainable habitable shelters than going into space...starting with energy neutral scrubbers.


                      This is why I prefer "humanoforming" to "terraforming."

                      Assuming a planet is a barren rock, terraforming might be an option.

                      But, if there is any life whatsoever, the first step in terraforming would almost certainly total planetary sterilization. Terraforming on a sterile planet would be infinitely complex (we do not even understand earth ecology very well yet). Add even a single microorganism and the complexity increases to infinity2.

                      If we are to be good citizens of the galaxy, we have to learn to live with others, not force others to learn to live with us.

                      I hope that by the time this becomes possible those who choose to go off-world will have developed the wisdom to avoid the mistakes we have made on earth. This may sound foolishly optimistic, but I believe it is possible.

                      Not likely, but possible.

                      I don't think it would have to mean sterilization. So, I took the astrobiology course via Coursera (which was pretty interesting), and while astrobiology is purely a hypothetical idea, there are a certain number of constants we can count on...

                      1) life is replicable
                      2) life is heritable
                      3) life requires energy input
                      4) life requires variation to expand its range
                      5) the building blocks of life are chemical

                      If our model of matter is correct, there are only so many types of atomic particles, so many stable atoms, etc. Those atoms can only form so many chemical compounds capable of carrying out 1-4, and they can be formed in a variety of was that all require a liquid water-like substance and something like carbon (possibly silicon).

                      If it is carbon-based, then we can assume it needs an inside and an outside (to be single "celled").....and so forth

                      But either way, say their life forms are silicon based and use chemical energy from vents in the ground and are nearly entierly aquatic--put up a few biome type shelters and call it a day.
                      Last edited by thalassa; 24 Jul 2015, 10:15.
                      Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                        #12
                        Re: Alpha Centauri...

                        But what happens when we try to create a stable ecosystem in vitro, like my little aquarium? I can do it, but as soon as one unexpected variable shows up (something dies undetected, or I over clean my bio-filter), everything goes screwy.

                        Now, a global ecology can absorb a lot of screwy and deal with it, but looky at what the unexpected variables we've introduced here on earth are doing to the global ecology.

                        A fragile terra formed planet would be much more like my little aquarium than it would be like a global ecology. Imagine the disasters that will inevitably show up if a high priority is not placed on eliminating variables. I think it is more a problem of dealing with overwhelming complexity that it is of pure biology (i.e.: pure biology, in this case, means understanding of biology and biological processes without including the application of complexity theory).
                        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                          #13
                          Re: Alpha Centauri...

                          Look at you guys...all building planets and acting like you are playing "Sim planet"
                          MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                          all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                          NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                          don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                          sigpic

                          my new page here,let me know what you think.


                          nothing but the shadow of what was

                          witchvox
                          http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

                          Comment

                            #14
                            Re: Alpha Centauri...

                            Sounds like where trying to set up Firefly in reality.
                            I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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                              #15
                              Re: Alpha Centauri...

                              Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
                              Sounds like where trying to set up Firefly in reality.
                              Because I want to be a space cowboy before I die...

                              ...and then a rich, best selling author who occasionally gets to make in-group references to his previous incarnation.
                              Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

                              Comment

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