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  • What do we know about Celtic pre-Christian religion?

    I found myself connecting the best with Celtic paganism and am interested in learning more about what we do know about the beliefs are associated with Celtic paganism especially in the British Isles. I now understand the Irish tales written by the monks has aspects of Pre-Christian beliefs but it was influenced heavily by the writers who were no longer pagan. Despite this there appears to be much from archeological , comparative anthropology, and careful evaluation of the writings and folklore that was preserved. I was interested in what other people have found to be true ( in the sense of being as close as we can to what was believed) about them. Their relationship to the gods/goddesses. The relationship of goddesses to the land. The difference when compared to the gods and goddesses of Rome. Any input would be appreciated.

  • #2
    Re: What do we know about Celtic pre-Christian religion?

    To be honest when I was studying about Celtic social and spiritual practices it got more confusing than solving. Mostly because so many tried to make a Celtic Pantheon of gods / goddesses and semi-divine beings yet Celtic is a language group not a people. As such what applied to one tribe did not specifically apply to any other's and the aspects that did were not always the same or even the same names.

    Even looking at the known Celtic tribes in Britain alone produced a lot of conflicting theories as to what their cultural, social and spiritual beliefs and practices actually were or looked like. When you expanded it to include Ireland, Wales, Scotland and even some of the French peoples you only discovered that the Irish were the main Celtic group that had an detailed stories that were well known and recorded. The Welsh had many tales of their own but those seemed to fall more into the Arthurian legends and such vice the Irish tales.

    It's like I found quit a bit of difference between the P variety of the language and the Q variety of the language. That in turn made quit a bit of difference in the stories and the surviving heroic tales. It's like Cernnunos as far as I know has only been identified on two pieces of crafted items and one of those is implied to be him not that it is actually known to be him. Yet he is a central figure it seems when people speak about the Celtic people.

    I truly do not believe you can do a true pantheon comparison to any well defined and established pantheon such as Hellene, Roman, Egyptian, Teutonic or Nordic. You might be able to do a compare and contrast of specific divinities but the social order and political / cultural influences are not to be found.

    Honestly I'd suggest trying to focus upon a certain known tribe or perhaps a certain known geographical area vice trying to focus upon an assumed Celtic Pantheon. Of course just my own opinion so others may disagree.
    I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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    • #3
      Re: What do we know about Celtic pre-Christian religion?

      Try reading books by Marion Green or Anne Ross. Both academics (nice writing styles though) and both very sound. It's a good start.
      Then remember that the Romans merrily syncretised most of the deities in the lands they conquered. So you will have quite a bit of unravelling to do. It really depends how far we want to go with it though.
      www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


      Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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      • #4
        Re: What do we know about Celtic pre-Christian religion?

        I appreciate your response very much. Growing up I learned much about Greek and Roman culture which presents an organized family of gods with specific attributes. I then learned of Norse gods and goddesses with some similar aspects yet not so organized. But I heard little about Celtic culture other than the Arthur Legends. When I started learning about Celtic culture I was first surprised that most of what we knew was from Ireland as you pointed out. Then I found it interesting that the island of Ireland (The only country I know that is named after a goddess) preserved Celtic pre-Christian culture and Iceland preserved what we know of Norse culture. What I am now trying to understand is the relationship of the Celtic goddesses to the land and that the gods and goddesses appear tribal or to a clan rather then the family of gods written down by the Irish monks. Do you have any ideas about this? And thank you again for responding because I am very interested in this subject.

        - - - Updated - - -

        I just finished Celtic Gods and Heroes by Sjoestedt and although it was not Celtic I also read 'Old Norse Religion in long-term perspectives" written by several authors after a conference in Lund Sweden in 2004. They were looking at how the religious practices and beliefs changed and were influenced both by Rome and then by Christianity. They looked at how archeology showed changes in rituals as the religion changed but I do not now a conference similar for the Celtic Religions. I am interested in looking deeper into the relationship of the Celtic people and their gods and goddesses beyond the way it is portrayed in the tales written by the Monks. I to appreciate the suggestions and will look into them.

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        • #5
          Re: What do we know about Celtic pre-Christian religion?

          The answer is I want to go much farther and am interested in finding people interested in Celtic paganism on a more in depth level. Unlike the gods of the Greeks/Romans the Celtic gods and goddesses share the earth and are not in a separate location as in Mount Olympus. There is a greater interaction between the Celtic spirits and gods/goddesses with the Celtic people but it occurs in the wild places and locations under the ground out in the wilderness. There is a greater association between Celtic deities and Nature. There is a blur between animal and humans certainty not seen in Abrahamic religions. Oisin has a semi-animal nature who is born from a doe named Saar and would have been a deer if the mother were to clean him with her tongue but instead she just licks his forehead were a tuft of fur is. Knowledge is found in nature thus the salmon of wisdom which feeds on the hazel nuts lives in the rives of which a person who drinks from all five rivers have considerable knowledge. Salmon are known for their awareness of the cycles of the earth and return to the site where they were born and respond to the cycles of nature. Cycles themselves are so important and celebrated. There is even the separation of the hero's of the tribe from the heroes outside of the tribe. I find that there is a strong connection of the goddess in particular to the land itself with female spirits or goddesses connected with the land and natural features. Even the magic appears to be associated with nature. These are some of the impressions I have gotten but am interested in how others see the relationship.

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          • #6
            Re: What do we know about Celtic pre-Christian religion?

            Sorry don't have any books or such as I truly do not recall the titles it's been so long now. You might want to check into the early Celtic Christian church and such. Figure a lot of early Celtic and Druid material crossed into the Celtic Church and had a significant influence upon it. I think a lot of it's influence stayed in Ireland so didn't quite undergo as much change. Sort of similar to how Irish Celtic lore was not lost nor modified nearly as much as that of Britain or mainland Europe.
            I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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            • #7
              Re: What do we know about Celtic pre-Christian religion?

              Originally posted by sionnach View Post
              I just finished Celtic Gods and Heroes by Sjoestedt
              That's a good start! Myths and Symbols in Pagan Europe, by Hilda Ellis Davidson, is also useful. The problem is not just how much material we've lost but how very local the religion was. Even if you take my version of Paganism, behind the well known Gods found in Athenian religion are all sorts of local divinities. If you lived at Epidauros, then the Gods who really mattered were Mneia and Azesia.

              Do you know these sites?

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              • #8
                Re: What do we know about Celtic pre-Christian religion?

                Originally posted by sionnach View Post
                The answer is I want to go much farther and am interested in finding people interested in Celtic paganism on a more in depth level. Unlike the gods of the Greeks/Romans the Celtic gods and goddesses share the earth and are not in a separate location as in Mount Olympus.
                So...I think this is a huge misunderstanding of Greek and Roman mythology. First off, there are more than just a dozen big name gods in either pantheon...and these twelve only the gods for a portion of the history of either people. Secondly, these gods come after an earlier almost animistic primordial deities. The Greek gods are the earth--Gaia's body *is* the Earth (also the sea--Oceanos, the sky--Ouranos, etc.). The Olympic deities make their mythic home on Mt Olympus, certainly...but that is an actual place (specifically the Mytikas peak of the mountain). Rome is slightly different in that many of their gods are gods of the polis rather than nature gods--deities of Rome (Anna Perenna (the year), Concordia (agreement, marital harmony), Libertas (liberty), Abundantia (abundance), Aequitas (equity), etc)...but the Dii themselves are complicated, and very much related to their Etruscan counterparts as their Greek ones. And Roman deities do have deities of the land as well... And that is before taking into account both the various lares of the Romans or the naiads, dryads, and other nymphs of the Greeks (and Romans), and the daemons of the Greeks.





                Personally (re the OP), I could never get into the Celtic mythology enough to care about any of the exclusively Celtic gods (and I never cared too much about the whole language family arguement--there's as much similarity as difference between all of the Indo-European originating religions when you look at them from the big picture. I have some dealings with Epona and Sulis Minerva, from a bioregional standpoint, and with Manannan mac Lir, and with Maman Brigitte from time to time...but thats about it.

                (In my experience, the Celtic gods are fairly open to being part of a diaspora)

                And with that being said, we have a reading list you might enjoy somewhere around here.. (here it is)

                Last edited by thalassa; 28 Jul 2015, 17:16.
                “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

                “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
                ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

                "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
                ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

                "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

                Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                sigpic

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                • #9
                  Re: What do we know about Celtic pre-Christian religion?

                  I must admit I am not as familiar with the roman nor greek gods as I am with Celtic. I do not understand your usage of dispora in reference to the Celtic gods. The term does not fit from what I know. My comments are related to Caesars issues with understanding Celtic gods and goddesses. One of the issues as I understand Celtic gods and goddesses is that they were more tribal or clan related than a group of gods/goddesses with differentiation in their specialties. I do agree that there were earlier aspects of greek and roman beliefs of spirits of the lands and waters as you mention but again I am not as familiar. Celtic goddesses were in particular associated with the land and land features to a much greater extent that roman goddesses were. Celtic goddesses are mother-goddesses in single or triple forms, local divinities, river goddesses animal goddesses, teachers, mothers, and incarnations of natural forces of fertility and destruction. The male Celtic gods were the father aspect, Chief gods, protector of the tribe, warrior magician and craftsman. In the last we see for instance both Dagda (just one of his titles) and Lug being experts in all aspects of craftsmanship without the division of different crafts to different gods. In addition the Celtic Gods and Goddesses dwell on the earth or In the earth in what is the sidhe. And I think (correct me if I am wrong). Heroes and kings was well as others of the mortal society could enter the sidhe and there was significant interaction between the those of the sidhe and the mortals on the land. This seems different than the relationship of the Greek and Roman gods and goddesses but as I have expressed I am not as familiar with their mythology and would appreciate being corrected if this is inaccurate. In fact that is why I joined the forum, to learn by expressing ideas and seeing how others see these subjects. I want to learn more and am not unwilling to correct what I think in view of better information. I did look at your list and have read some of the books included but look forward to learning more. I would love to have more interaction to challenge my understanding.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: What do we know about Celtic pre-Christian religion?

                    Well, okay. The thing to remember is that you are looking at a period and at cultures (because you cannot lump 'British Celts' together in a single cell, they are very diverse over tiny areas) that did not write things down. Therefore just about everything we know about them will come from what others wrote about them, or from artefacts they made or used.

                    It is extremely difficult to generalise so when you make a statement (and I am NOT being critical here) 'Heroes and kings as well as others of the mortal society could enter the sidhe...' you really don't have much evidence to back that up. This is not a failing on your part - just a fact. Do we know how Celts thought of the sidhe? Not really. We might get an idea what others thought they knew, but that's never going to be the same.

                    If you are using myths and legends, then remember these are going to be like a palimpsest, layer upon layer, often the later ones being added by people whose beliefs were quite different from the original.

                    If you are using anything written by Caesar, do remember that he had his own agenda here. The De Bello Gallico, for example, was put together mainly from annual dispatches sent back to Rome to show how well he was doing and how difficult his task was. he was not really interested in the people he was writing about... only about how he could show himself and his actions in the best possible light. So yes, use his work (it's fascinating) but we always need to keep looking over our shoulders to see what else is out there.

                    And a final proviso - much of what people think of as Celtic is in fact Anglo-Saxon. Or an Anglo-Saxon version of Celtic which is even more baffling.
                    But I do wish you all the best with your search!
                    www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                    Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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                    • #11
                      Re: What do we know about Celtic pre-Christian religion?

                      Thank you for your response, that is exactly what I am looking for. You are right I must be careful not to make statements as facts but rather as impressions I get from what I read. I must admit when I am talking about Celtic pre-Christian I am really referring mainly to Irish beliefs. This is because most of what I can find is from Ireland so I have become more familiar with Irish mythology and folklore. How similar it is to the rest of the Celtic world I do not know.

                      But I still think Caesar's response is still telling of the difference between Roman and Celtic view of gods and goddesses. There was considerable use of Mercury to compare to the Celtic gods and he does not describe a family of gods and goddesses as seen in Roman mythology. From what I have read there is evidence that the gods and goddess were tribal meaning a god /goddess of a tribe thus the large number of gods and goddesses in which inscriptions have been found are because of all of the different tribes or clans each with a god/goddess associated. In Irish mythology there is a clear connection with the land and land features - rivers, lakes, mounds, hills. There is also a close association of the gods/goddesses and the natural world including the cycles of the world with the celebrations of Imbolc , Beltaine, Lughnasadh, and samhain. The concept of the salmon of knowledge and hazelnuts connecting knowledge to the natural world. These seem to be reasonable characteristics of at least Irish Celtic beliefs as I have found so far but I would like to know what others think.

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                      • #12
                        Re: What do we know about Celtic pre-Christian religion?

                        Originally posted by sionnach View Post
                        But I still think Caesar's response is still telling of the difference between Roman and Celtic view of gods and goddesses. There was considerable use of Mercury to compare to the Celtic gods and he does not describe a family of gods and goddesses as seen in Roman mythology. From what I have read there is evidence that the gods and goddess were tribal meaning a god /goddess of a tribe thus the large number of gods and goddesses in which inscriptions have been found are because of all of the different tribes or clans each with a god/goddess associated.
                        The problem with your assumption here is that you are talking about a specific time period in Roman history. Religion does not exist in a vacuum. It evolves as a part of the culture of the people. Roman history goes back over a thousand years before Caesar. The Roman view of the gods at this, much earlier, time period (which are some of the gods I include in my worship) looks very different than the view of the gods in the time period you are talking about, where their views have been influenced by the Classical and Hellenic period views of Greek culture and religion. During these earlier periods (as with the Archaic period in Greek history) religion (and culture) looks more similar to that other Indo-European cultures (such as the Celts and the Anglo-Saxons) than it does to the later periods in their respective histories...which makes sense, because these cultures (and religions) have a common origin.

                        Culture (including religion) behaves in similar ways that species do, over time. Cultures (and religions) adapt to changing times and new technologies, they react to changes in the environment (the hearts and minds of men, who is in turn influenced by their environment) by changing tenets and practices, they mutate with the introduction of impactful personalitites (Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, Joseph Smith, etc), they often hybridize in the margins where two overlap, and they tend to split when their populations split and encounter different experiences. Religion is fairly slow to change when the culture is stable, and cultures tend to be stable when they don't have serious conflict (whether that is conflict with other peoples or with the environment or within themselves), and conflict tends to be minimal where there isn't much ecological stress. You cannot reliably understand a religion without looking at the greater culture from which it comes and the history of the people where it originates, and even then, you have to remember that the culture (and religion) of a particular people is only the culture of that people for a slice of time--as you move forward and backward in time, the culture changes, sometimes so much that it is indisinguishable in degree of difference from an entirely different culture.

                        With that having been said...I took Irish history at a local college, where it was taught by a guy that had come to the US from Ireland for his PhD (his area of specialty was Civil Rights movements) and met a local girl and decided to stay (Irish history taught in an Irish accent is just more fun). To paraphrase him, the theme of Irish history (maybe to a lesser extent Scotland, Wales and England; though Mrs P would be better equipped to answer that) is one of invasion and settlement, in which the newcomers become "more Irish than the Irish themselves"--the Celts were just one of many people that became part of that culture. I really recommend the book Britain Begins, for a more thourough understanding of the most up to date understanding of the early history of the British Isles, which (IMO) is essential to any understanding of the culture and history there (or for any Pagan religion, whether one is a reconstructionist or not). Among the first inhabitants that settled Ireland were a group of people that shared their ancestry with the Basque. I truly recommend reading (or perhaps rereading) the Leabhar Gabhla (The Book of Invasions), and looking at it as a history told as a metaphor, rather than as religious mythology.
                        “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

                        “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
                        ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

                        "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
                        ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

                        "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

                        Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                        sigpic

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: What do we know about Celtic pre-Christian religion?

                          Yes, Thal, invasion is important, although we didn't have as many invasions as we feel we did! The thing about the Romans is that we have to view how they treated (and were treated by) the people they invaded from several angles:
                          1. that the Romans swamped everything in their wake. They did sometimes, not often.
                          2. That the invaded people resisted tooth and nail. (A bit like the Asterix stories.)
                          3. That the two cultures borrowed from each other to a greater or lesser extent.
                          4. That the two cultures (and of course there may even have been more) melded and produced something quite new.

                          One of the most fascinating areas of study for me is place names. It's surprising what can turn up there! Often we get a better idea from this of how the land was used and shaped.
                          www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                          Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: What do we know about Celtic pre-Christian religion?

                            Originally posted by Tylluan Penry View Post
                            Yes, Thal, invasion is important, although we didn't have as many invasions as we feel we did! The thing about the Romans is that we have to view how they treated (and were treated by) the people they invaded from several angles:
                            1. that the Romans swamped everything in their wake. They did sometimes, not often.
                            2. That the invaded people resisted tooth and nail. (A bit like the Asterix stories.)
                            3. That the two cultures borrowed from each other to a greater or lesser extent.
                            4. That the two cultures (and of course there may even have been more) melded and produced something quite new.

                            One of the most fascinating areas of study for me is place names. It's surprising what can turn up there! Often we get a better idea from this of how the land was used and shaped.
                            I like you analysis. There is information that the Germanic tribes that resisted Rome and finally invaded Rome evidently liked the hierarchical structure of Rome and respected its power. This is a personal opinion but it seems that the Celtic and Germanic cultures were more oriented to individualism and separate groups of power whereas Rome was the quintessential centralized power with much clearer hierarchy. This proved to me a more powerful force and harder to resist than the Tribal or clan organization of the northern people. I find it not surprising that the roman church designed itself after the roman military pattern. This clearly helped it to eliminate all other forms of christianitiy from the ebionites to the gnostics to the marcionites. It is also why I think it was so successful at eliminating any pagan opposition. I also think the Kings /leaders of the Invading tribes saw the potential for this power structure and the advantage of Christianity with its clear power structure that could secure their power better over the older Germanic and Celtic concepts of ruling. Sorry I got off the topic but I find one of the interesting aspects of English history is that the Barons kept some power to themselves (thus magna carta) whereas the Kings in France gave the king greater power over their nobles. I think that concept is some residual ideas of the original peoples concepts of individualism over complete acceptance of central structure. Ok I really got off subject but I have often wondered if anyone else thought this.

                            - - - Updated - - -

                            I do agree with your comments about how religion changes. This was studied for Scandinavian paganism in a conference in 2004 in Lund Sweden with a book printed 'Old Norse Religions in Long Term perspectives' multiple authors. They see the change in Norse religion as different cultures especially the Roman one influenced the religion over time. They show archeological evidence for change in places for votive deposits from natural areas to within the structures of the village. The entire works written near the year 1000 shows a much more complex organization of the Norse gods/goddessses far removed from the original tribal gods and goddesses in pre-roman times.

                            This is probably similar to the Leabhar Gabhla written much later well after paganism had essentially died out as an organized religion. It to was probably influence by roman and other cultures which created a family of gods/goddesses which were more likely tribal/Clan linked to different regions than a true family of the Goddess Dana. I still think though within these tales are elements of the pre-Christian beliefs that can still be understood. That is why I want to know what other people think. I will try to get a copy Britain begins and would like your thoughts about what we can understand of pre-Christian Celtic beliefs.

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                            • #15
                              Re: What do we know about Celtic pre-Christian religion?

                              Sorry to join this a little late. I had to wait for a quiet shift at work to find time to reply properly. I work with local Celtic deities. I am not attempting to reconstruct the original religion, but I am definitely attempting to reinvent it! There wasn't a big pull towards the Celtic cultures of my ancestors that others have felt. It happened almost by accident for me. I was inspired to look to a more land-based path, and this led me to research local deities. I discovered there are many Roman shrines and inscriptions throughout the North East of England, that honoured local Celtic deities. I simply started there. My relationship and connection to these deities started to grow from there.

                              Finding much more than names and the parallels the Romans made to their own deities, isn't easy for deities in this area. Northumberland was one of the first areas to convert to Christianity, and much detail about how these people perceived and honoured their gods, was lost in the process. You'll most likely find that in the bulk of the titles recommended in this thread, the authors will point mainly to existing Celtic regions such as Ireland and Wales, with much less said of the Brythonic Celts.

                              As Tylluan points out, we know from archaeology that societies as close as Northumberland and Yorkshire likely had differences in their cultures, and so it can be argued that their precise methods of venerating the gods will have differed. However, one thing I have discovered, is that the gods themselves went on quite a journey, with inscriptions in Sunderland matching those found in France of Belgium. To assume that these deities travelled from Gaul in name alone, seems a bit strange to me. Certain rites and cultures must have surved intact too, with regional variations arising as a kind of Chinese whispers. Or, to put it another way;

                              Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                              there's as much similarity as difference between all of the Indo-European originating religions when you look at them from the big picture.
                              Not only throughout England, but also the British isles and mainland Europe, it's quite possible that the vast array of pagan faiths actually did share common characteristics. So I am perfectly comfortable to look to a variety of pagan traditions for inspiration. From that, I simply take what feels the most logical to me, and go with that, refining my practices as I learn more.

                              It would be nice to be able to point to specific historical evidence for my practices, but it doesn't particularly bother me that I can't. My experiences with the spirits I work with continuously validate my path for me, and that's all I need.
                              Last edited by Jembru; 31 Jul 2015, 15:54.
                              夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

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