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  • The Problem of Evil

    Hi Guys,

    Yesterday I found myself having a minor crisis of faith; I watched a TedTalk on the effects of porn on people's ability to feel empathy and experience intimacy, and some of the descriptions of what's considered 'mainstream' in that industry were pretty horrifying to me. Now don't get me wrong, I totally read/watch porn, but have always avoided the stuff this lecture was about, and I'm certainly not straight up against the stuff. No, my problem was this feeling I couldn't shake that I didn't understand why this culture, why this industry, exists at all. Why violence and sadism and degradation have been woven into our cultural experience of the erotic. The feeling escalated until I felt sort of...betrayed by God. Like, why was this injustice part of my life, part of so many people's lives? Why does cruelty exist and what purpose does it serve? Why do I feel afraid when I get dressed in the morning, in case I wear something that some crazy person interprets as an invitation to violence? How is any of this okay?

    In the end, I felt like I was grappling with the fact that I believe in a loving divine presence but felt unable to reconcile that, at least for a time, with what I was hearing and the fear, anger and disgust I was feeling.

    So after that long preamble I get to my question for you: How do you personally, or how does your tradition, help you to deal with this seeming paradox? How do you understand cruelty as part of a larger spiritual picture? Does your tradition acknowledge evil at all, or does it accept it as part of life, or as a disease to be cured or...I don't know, whatever you/your faith uses to explain these things. I'd really love to get some different perspectives on this.

  • #2
    Re: The Problem of Evil

    Don't blame god, blame hormones.

    Shoot yourself up with a heavy dose of the male "sex" hormone, testosterone, and you'll discover that, despite what people like to say, sex & violence are related.

    Assuming, however, that a person falls within the normal spectrum for 'roids, and isn't adding artificially, environment - how one is socialized, and one's experiences - determines the relationship between sex and violence.

    And then, of course, their is the ability to change...

    This isn't spiritual I suppose, but then, my spirituality isn't spiritual either.

    Incidentally, careful research done in Scandinavian countries with a long history of legal porn demonstrate pretty effectively that it has little, if any, impact on behavior. And the "little" tends to be a slight reduction in sex crime, possibly due to the fact that fantasy allows an outlet.
    Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: The Problem of Evil

      Sorry, my intention was only to provide context for why this question was in my mind, not start a discussion about pornography itself or whether or not there are data to support the talk's argument. I was more curious about how you cope with an acknowledgment that there are horrible things in the world (most of which are far worse than the issue which triggered my question) while still understanding them in a spiritual context. It kind of sounds like you're saying that these things just are, and not to go further than that.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: The Problem of Evil

        OK, try this...

        There is bad stuff in the world because:

        A) some people actually can't control themselves, due to organic problems
        B) some people make bad choices
        C) some people can't tell "good" from "bad" for a variety of reasons (just one being that many people thing by theory rather than by reality)
        D) some people find being bad pleasurable, or a means to gain status
        E) some people are in taught spots and can think of no other way put, or they act by gut feelings
        F) other reasons I haven't thought up yet...

        I cope with it by being careful, and calculating before taking risks.
        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: The Problem of Evil

          Unfortunately, horrible things are simply part of existing. Cute, adorable, fuzzy little animals are ripped away from their nests and mothers only to be devoured by creatures much larger and much more powerful than they are. The sea constantly chews and tears at the land, greedily swallowing it in great chunks. Insects burrow, dig, and slice up the roots of beautiful flowers just so that they can survive. Violence, destruction, and chaos are the natural order of all things, it just so happens that out big brains have given us the ability to come up with interesting and inventive ways to carry out that natural imperative. You could shelter yourself away, watch only Disney cartoons, only read Judy Bloom books, and rock out to the sounds of Zamfir on his pan pipes, never visiting any harm on anyone nor having any visited on you only to have that wondrous tree in your backyard get struck by lightning, crash through your roof, and crush you while you slept and dreamed of dancing sugarplum fairies.

          The thing is, it's just something that is part of everything around us. Granted, I'm not advocating going out and killing your neighbor or kicking small animals just because it's "nature", but I'm saying that through such things we grow, evolve, and change, so have to find a way to live with it. As B. de said, you be careful, you don't take crazy risks, and you hope that those around you are going to do the same. People LIKE watching horrible things on TV or in movies, or reading about them in books. It's sort of what was partially behind freak shows and gladiatorial games. Give the people something to hate, some way to get that rage and anger out, and chances are they will be less likely to turn on each other.

          Now spiritually, I am Northern Tradition. Very much of it is primal, chaotic, wild, and powerful. The myths tell of trickery, violence, wars, death, and conquest, but also about friendship, loyalty, and love. The gods all understand that they will all die, and can be hurt, just like us mortals. There really is no escape from it, so the trick is to live your life as best you can, and to not let the things you can't control drag you down.
          "The streams called Ice-waves, those which were so long come from the fountain-heads that the yeasty venom upon them had hardened like the slag that runs out of the fire, - these then became ice; and when the ice halted and ceased to run, then it froze over above. But the drizzling rain that rose from the venom congealed to rime, and the rime increased, frost over frost, each over the other, even into Ginnungagap, the Yawning Void. Ginnungagap, which faced toward the northern quarter, became filled with heaviness, and masses of ice and rime, and from within, drizzling rain and gusts; but the southern part of the Yawning Void was lighted by those sparks and glowing masses which flew out of Múspellheim. Just as cold arose out of Niflheim, and all terrible things, so also all that looked toward Múspellheim became hot and glowing; but Ginnungagap was as mild as windless air, and when the breath of heat met the rime, so that it melted and dripped, life was quickened from the yeast-drops, by the power of that which sent the heat, and became a man's form. And that man is named Ymir, but the Rime-Giants call him Aurgelimir" - The Gylfaginning

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: The Problem of Evil

            So, I have a motto--Take with compassion, give with humility.

            Evil then, is a rip in the fabric of empathy. (I wholly admit to borrowing this phrase)


            As to the why, I think Corbin's list is a good start:

            There is bad stuff in the world because:

            A) some people actually can't control themselves, due to organic problems
            B) some people make bad choices
            C) some people can't tell "good" from "bad" for a variety of reasons (just one being that many people think by theory rather than by reality)
            D) some people find being bad pleasurable, or a means to gain status
            E) some people are in tough spots and can think of no other way out, or they act by gut feelings

            I'd maybe add a few more:

            F) Some people are motivated by greed and selfishness
            G) Some people actually differ in what they think is "bad" (and in what they think is "good")
            H) Some people are never taught compassion and empathy (this is common with certain mental conditions, and may be related to A) or (by bad treatments) loose their capacity for it
            I) Some people are just thoughtless
            J) other reasons I haven't thought up yet...


            And lets not forget the power of stochasticity.
            “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

            “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
            ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

            "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
            ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

            "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

            Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
            sigpic

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            • #7
              Re: The Problem of Evil

              I'm totally with you guys on the fact that shitty things happen and not to do stupid things, but when you compile a list of reasons why people do "bad things" it sounds like philosophically, all evil is attributed to humans. Is that your outlook? Because on the other hand it seems like Munin Hugin was arguing for evil being simply a side of nature/the divine that doesn't necessarily limit itself to humanity.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: The Problem of Evil

                Originally posted by Tahemet1491 View Post
                I'm totally with you guys on the fact that shitty things happen and not to do stupid things, but when you compile a list of reasons why people do "bad things" it sounds like philosophically, all evil is attributed to humans. Is that your outlook? Because on the other hand it seems like Munin Hugin was arguing for evil being simply a side of nature/the divine that doesn't necessarily limit itself to humanity.
                The thing is, that's where it gets confusing. I'm not entirely sure that I believe in "evil". Is the bolt of lightning that starts a fire and destroys a 1000 year old forest evil? Is the three year old boy who stamps on an ant for the sole purpose of snuffing out it's life evil? Or, is the God that both asked a worshiper to sacrifice his only son to him and struck down a man's wife for simply turning around and looking evil? Evil is not a black or white concept, as it relies upon morality to decide what is good and what is bad. Because morality is a human construct, thus the concept of Evil a human creation as well. You could say that the little girl that slapped the cat was bad, but then say that the cat which retaliated and fatally mauled the girl was evil. Why is it evil? Because it killed a little girl? It was simply responding to its environment and doing what it knew to do in order to remove the threat.

                We could look at a man who tracks down another, captures him, lays him out on a table to cut out and eat his heart as evil. BUT, what if that was for his religion? In his mind, he was doing the GOOD thing by honoring his gods. While it's no where near the same severity, it also shows my point. In the US, holding up the index and middle finger is a symbol to say "peace", while in England you might as well just flip them the bird. Good and evil are cultural constructs, not absolutes. So, when you come down to it, all evil IS derived from humans, because it is because of humans that the concept of evil even exists.
                "The streams called Ice-waves, those which were so long come from the fountain-heads that the yeasty venom upon them had hardened like the slag that runs out of the fire, - these then became ice; and when the ice halted and ceased to run, then it froze over above. But the drizzling rain that rose from the venom congealed to rime, and the rime increased, frost over frost, each over the other, even into Ginnungagap, the Yawning Void. Ginnungagap, which faced toward the northern quarter, became filled with heaviness, and masses of ice and rime, and from within, drizzling rain and gusts; but the southern part of the Yawning Void was lighted by those sparks and glowing masses which flew out of Múspellheim. Just as cold arose out of Niflheim, and all terrible things, so also all that looked toward Múspellheim became hot and glowing; but Ginnungagap was as mild as windless air, and when the breath of heat met the rime, so that it melted and dripped, life was quickened from the yeast-drops, by the power of that which sent the heat, and became a man's form. And that man is named Ymir, but the Rime-Giants call him Aurgelimir" - The Gylfaginning

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: The Problem of Evil

                  Originally posted by Munin-Hugin View Post
                  Good and evil are cultural constructs, not absolutes. So, when you come down to it, all evil IS derived from humans, because it is because of humans that the concept of evil even exists.
                  In the vast majority of situations, I think that is the case--but I can't help but be stymied by certain extreme examples like gang rape or other kinds of torture-- if I fully accept your premise, I feel I am led to paint all activities with the same "relativity" brush, and see those acts in the same light as cat scratches--just a human concept with no real, objective meaning.

                  Now if that were the case, wouldn't there be some humans who saw torture/degradation differently and therefore were not affected or distressed by it? Maybe the Stoics? I'm not sure. I'm intrigued by the idea, but on another level it seems like the desire for bodily autonomy is inherent to people, if not to many animals as well...

                  Quick Edit: Just to be clear, I'm not talking about like, a masochist who seeks pain out, I'm talking about someone who, without choosing it, finds themselves in a situation where they are being tortured and has no problem with this. I think the issue of choice is key here.

                  - - - Updated - - -

                  Oh man, that's totally Jesus, isn't it? F*ck.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: The Problem of Evil

                    You can decide what the limits are for you, personally, and a society can decide what the limits are collectively.

                    In the US, pederasty is a crime. In Ancient Rome, it considered normal... even good. Likewise, we, in the US, no longer make a public spectacle of executions. At one time, though, it was considered entertainment and even instructive for children.

                    "Evil" is a human construct, and what is evil varies in time and in culture. The current zeitgeist has it that those things which cause direct harm to others are bad. This produces certain good results - an increase in freedom and human dignity. I prefer this because we, alive today, in this place, have the luxury to thing of the well being of others along with our own.

                    And be certain to notice the use of the word "luxury." Should, for some reason, life become extraordinarily hard, that luxury is apt to vanish, and the zeitgeist will likely change.

                    Or maybe not. Maybe once it has been tasted, the desire for that particular luxury will become an addiction.

                    LOL - nothing wrong with Jesus.
                    Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: The Problem of Evil

                      Originally posted by Tahemet1491 View Post
                      Hi Guys,

                      How do you personally, or how does your tradition, help you to deal with this seeming paradox? How do you understand cruelty as part of a larger spiritual picture? Does your tradition acknowledge evil at all, or does it accept it as part of life, or as a disease to be cured or...I don't know, whatever you/your faith uses to explain these things. I'd really love to get some different perspectives on this.
                      Okay so I'm going to try to answer this from within the context of my very strange almost heretical version of Christianity. One of the reasons I started to reconstruct my faith was because of dissatisfaction with pat answers regarding human suffering. I couldn't believe in an all-knowing, all-loving, everywhere-at-once God and be happy with answers like : God doesn't want this to happen to you, it's the Devil.

                      I think all religions should be able to answer the question of human suffering and many do so within the context of an eternal time-line and with a basic construction of the supernatural realm. My view of the supernatural realm is that the physical realm is an expression of what is happening in the spiritual. I think that the Divine God is a being all of its own and that the physical realm is a manifestation of the Divine and matter. We have consciousness because we are a manifestation of the Divine. As we experience life in all its fullness, it is as though the Divine experiences it as well. When we die, the Divine essence of us goes back into the Divine for rebirth. Kind of a spiritual evolution based on experience.

                      As for the cosmological reason for suffering, I believe essentially that 'the shadow proves the sunshine' and to try to be okay with the paradoxes. I believe that God exists in all things and outside all things as well. I don't believe there exists a being of pure evil that operates independently to the will of God. I don't know what the Divine will is for suffering, apart from that it simply is and always has been. The main point is our response to suffering. I believe that there is a common human understanding of joy and contentment and that the Divine can use human agency as a way to manifest those characteristics. I don't really know if there is a 'true nature' of the Divine that is to be manifested. Sometimes I feel that the Divine is fairly neutral and it is I who attaches meaning to experiences. However, when I am with the Divine in spirit, I feel connected, autonomous, enough, peaceful and fulfilled. So at times I feel it is those attributes that are to be manifested in the experience of life. 'For a life to do as it was born to' is the phrase that comes to mind.

                      As for the definition and causes of suffering itself, I believe these are all social constructs and biological cues. I think suffering will always exist because it is part of the human drive to survive, protect and to strive for better. My son cries when he is not allowed to go outside. To him, that is the worst thing ever. But from my point of view, if that is all he can cry about, he has a wonderful life because I know it could be much worse. He has not yet experienced those worse things, so the magnitude of his sorrow seems disproportionate. Somewhere between our experiences of suffering and our experiences of joy, a baseline of day-to-day experience is established. Experiences that fall below our expectations bring us suffering and experiences that rise above our expectations bring us joy. When we go through periods of immense suffering, our baseline is readjusted. Suffering is the pressure that forces us to think bigger and it is the sieve that helps us to discern what is most important in our lives. It is also the reason we come up with creative inventions.

                      There's another thread on this topic somewhere. Aeran explains Karma really well in it. I'll see if I can find it. Miss you, Aeran!
                      Last edited by Azvanna; 12 Aug 2015, 03:15.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: The Problem of Evil

                        Take a look at "The Mysterious Stranger" by Mark Twain. It is a rather excellent short story that debates the differences between good, evil, right, wrong, and morality.
                        "The streams called Ice-waves, those which were so long come from the fountain-heads that the yeasty venom upon them had hardened like the slag that runs out of the fire, - these then became ice; and when the ice halted and ceased to run, then it froze over above. But the drizzling rain that rose from the venom congealed to rime, and the rime increased, frost over frost, each over the other, even into Ginnungagap, the Yawning Void. Ginnungagap, which faced toward the northern quarter, became filled with heaviness, and masses of ice and rime, and from within, drizzling rain and gusts; but the southern part of the Yawning Void was lighted by those sparks and glowing masses which flew out of Múspellheim. Just as cold arose out of Niflheim, and all terrible things, so also all that looked toward Múspellheim became hot and glowing; but Ginnungagap was as mild as windless air, and when the breath of heat met the rime, so that it melted and dripped, life was quickened from the yeast-drops, by the power of that which sent the heat, and became a man's form. And that man is named Ymir, but the Rime-Giants call him Aurgelimir" - The Gylfaginning

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: The Problem of Evil

                          Originally posted by Tahemet1491 View Post
                          In the vast majority of situations, I think that is the case--but I can't help but be stymied by certain extreme examples like gang rape or other kinds of torture-- if I fully accept your premise, I feel I am led to paint all activities with the same "relativity" brush, and see those acts in the same light as cat scratches--just a human concept with no real, objective meaning.
                          My kids think litterers are evil.

                          Evil doesn't have a real, objective meaning. Evil is a complete human made up idea. Outside of humanity, there's no such concept of evil...and, IMO the opposite of evil is not good. If evil has an opposite, its the virtue of compassion. We percieve in terms of "loss" and "benefit", and we give these the value of "bad" and "good". I can measure loss and benefit, but that is still subjective to the individual in question. Loss to an individual (of whatever property one is looking at) is a benefit to another. Depending on the situation we consider it good or bad. In extreme cases, when its something we hold dear, we call it evil or we elevate it as something sacred.

                          There is no action that one can take that doesn't cause harm somewhere along the chain of events of what preceeded or follows from that action. For example...I buy a fair trade, organic, sustainable harvested bamboo t-shirt that employs war amputees in a country where they'd otherwise live on the street thinking that I am doing something good for the environment and for people. Oops, ends up my good, moral choice is harmful--not only have I not given my business to the guy down the street that sells locally made t-shirts, but I also had something shipped half way around the world, and the darn thing was wrapped in plastic, plus the organic bamboo that made up my t-shirt was farmed by a farmer that decimated the preexisting ecosystem to plant the bamboo.

                          Going back to your OP, pain is not automatically harm. Pain can be good. It tells you when to stop. Or it could be something you enjoy...neurologically the two are quite close and the difference is mostly in your head.




                          Maybe the Stoics? I'm not sure. I'm intrigued by the idea, but on another level it seems like the desire for bodily autonomy is inherent to people, if not to many animals as well...
                          No, not the Stoics! (People really tend to misattribute what they said/did/believed...they were actually quite cool.)

                          Bodily autonomy is inherent to people. Survivial is important to all animals.
                          “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

                          “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
                          ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

                          "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
                          ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

                          "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

                          Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                          sigpic

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: The Problem of Evil

                            The concept of evil,in my own personal interpretation is used quit a bit to make human acts that go way beyond bad seem to be the action of a person controlled by a " Demon" or what ever people deem the outside connection and it tries to make the human less a bad person but also another victim of that outside spiritual demon..

                            - - - Updated - - -

                            Might also tie the whole concept to the garden of Edan and the eating of the forbidden fruit...from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil if one remembers their early Sunday school lessons.
                            MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                            all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                            NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                            don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                            sigpic

                            my new page here,let me know what you think.


                            nothing but the shadow of what was

                            witchvox
                            http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

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                            • #15
                              Re: The Problem of Evil

                              Originally posted by Tahemet1491 View Post
                              In the vast majority of situations, I think that is the case--but I can't help but be stymied by certain extreme examples like gang rape or other kinds of torture-- if I fully accept your premise, I feel I am led to paint all activities with the same "relativity" brush, and see those acts in the same light as cat scratches--just a human concept with no real, objective meaning.
                              A thing can be a human concept and still have objective meaning. Algebra isn't practiced by any other species on this planet to my knowledge but it's part of the mathematical system that we use in countless portions of society. Law is currently a human concept but we enforce it with a vengeance because it works. There are other practices that we only really see in human beings but which tend to have a distinct value because at the end of the day those concepts work for humans.
                              "It is not simply enough to know the light…a Jedi must feel the tension between the two sides of the Force…in himself and in the universe."
                              ―Thon

                              "When to the Force you truly give yourself, all you do expresses the truth of who you are,"

                              Yoda

                              Yoda told stories, and ate, and cried, and laughed: and the Padawans saw that life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                              Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                              "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                              John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                              "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                              Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


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