Should there be spaces for cis vs trans gendered persons?

[thalassa]

I came across this in a blog post, and its not the first time I've seen stuff like it, surprisingly (to me at least), not from straight women, but from lesbian women.

"you are a male, who spent most of his brain formation years alive, as a man! that means you were not raised a girl, pretty simple really."

I'm not linking it because the greater context of the quote isn't the point of the debate...and the greater context, quite frankly offends me.

BUT.


I'm bringing this up because it reminded me of the last time I read something similar, in the problem of a women's rape group that was trans-inclusive, and some of the women that had been raped being extremely uncomfortable, and leaving the therapy, because the experiences of some of the trans-women were actually triggering to them.

I'm all for the concept that trans-women are (in their brain, and for some of them medically/surgically) women...but I can also see the problem of "hey, you (probably) were raised male, society viewed you as male, you (maybe) are still biologically male, your experience of trauma is not my experience of trauma, you do not belong here" in certain places.

The debate: Should there a legitimate place for biological, from birth gender experiences in our culture? Is the experience of being trans different enough that there are venues where it might reasonably be excluded? Or is that bigotry automatically?


Also, PLAY NICE HERE. We have a number of members that identify at varying places on the spectrum of human diversity that we label as gender. BUT we also have a number of members that (while they embrace diversity) may not be that familiar with transsexuality. So be POLITE but also be OPEN MINDED, and try not to be quick to rush to conclusions on someone's intentions.

I bring this up as a topic because I'm genuinely interested in opinions. I put it in debate because I expect it to end up as one...BUT that is no excuse for bad manners.

[thalassa]

Re: Should there be spaces for cis vs trans gendered persons?

Also, sorry if all you saw was *just the quote* and thought I was going coo coo...my computer wouldn't let me type in the typing box, and it posted before I could add context...

[Rae'ya]

Re: Should there be spaces for cis vs trans gendered persons?

I'm all for the concept that trans-women are (in their brain, and for some of them medically/surgically) women...but I can also see the problem of "hey, you (probably) were raised male, society viewed you as male, you (maybe) are still biologically male, your experience of trauma is not my experience of trauma, you do not belong here" in certain places.

I really disagree with this line of thinking, because NO ONE's experience of trauma is the same as anyone else's experience of trauma. PERIOD.

A person's experience of trauma is so much more complicated than gender or upbringing. I don't think that you can assume anyone does or doesn't truly understand you for any reason, let alone based on gender alone. And no one should be excluded from something like a support group based on some false sense of 'you don't experience x trauma like I do'.

The debate: Should there a legitimate place for biological, from birth gender experiences in our culture? Is the experience of being trans different enough that there are venues where it might reasonably be excluded? Or is that bigotry automatically?

No, I don't think that trans people should be excluded from gender based groups. Two reasons... 1) what I said above and 2) I personally believe that a person is the gender they are on the inside and that how society viewed them as a child makes not one lick of difference to whether they are woman enough to share a changeroom with me. I will happily share a changeroom with a transwoman, I will happily be naked in front of a transwoman. Why would I feel any differently naked in front of a straight transwoman than I would in front of a lesbian ciswoman, for example?

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Should there be spaces for cis vs trans gendered persons?

I agree with what Rea'ya said above, generally, but insert an exception.

In the trans-inclusive women's rape survivors group Thalassa described, women had gathered in a place where they felt safe to talk about their experience of a terrible trauma, with, I believe the idea that, by doing so they could better cope with that trauma.

But they were unable to feel safe because of the inclusion of trans-gendered people, and, therefore, were unable to continue.

Rea'ya has stated (and I fully agree): "... NO ONE's experience of trauma is the same as anyone else's experience of trauma. PERIOD." What I don't agree with is that this means that those women who became unable to participate in that group due to the inclusion of trans-gendered folks need to just get over it. Because...

... if everybody's experience of trauma is different, then there are going to be people who, due to their experience of trauma, will not be able to cope with that.

So - should there be certain groups (like the women's rape survivor's group) that exclude xxxxxx (pick your gender variation)?

Absolutely! If there is a need. There is no real "inclusion" when it is based on "exclusion." People need to actually understand difference in others and what it means, then think with their minds rather that with theories of PCness.

[thalassa]

Re: Should there be spaces for cis vs trans gendered persons?

I agree with what Rea'ya said above, generally, but insert an exception.

In the trans-inclusive women's rape survivors group Thalassa described, women had gathered in a place where they felt safe to talk about their experience of a terrible trauma, with, I believe the idea that, by doing so they could better cope with that trauma.

But they were unable to feel safe because of the inclusion of trans-gendered people, and, therefore, were unable to continue.

Rea'ya has stated (and I fully agree): "... NO ONE's experience of trauma is the same as anyone else's experience of trauma. PERIOD." What I don't agree with is that this means that those women who became unable to participate in that group due to the inclusion of trans-gendered folks need to just get over it. Because...

... if everybody's experience of trauma is different, then there are going to be people who, due to their experience of trauma, will not be able to cope with that.

So - should there be certain groups (like the women's rape survivor's group) that exclude xxxxxx (pick your gender variation)?

Absolutely! If there is a need. There is no real "inclusion" when it is based on "exclusion." People need to actually understand difference in others and what it means, then think with their minds rather that with theories of PCness.

AH! You said it better than me!! Thank you!



When I was a victim advocate, I was never offended when someone wanted *someone else* as their advocate--whether it be a male, a person of another race, or (because my religion was fairly well known at the command at the time) even a person of the same faith background. Its what they need to feel safe...and while one can't bubble wrap the world for anyone, I think in some situations, I can understand reticience.

[anunitu]

Re: Should there be spaces for cis vs trans gendered persons?

I remember when I was seeing a shrink(During my bout of depression) the female therapist told me right at the beginning session this " if at any time I felt that she was not helping for ANY reason that I should ask for another therapist" and explained the session was for MY benefit only,not to continue just to not offend her.

At that moment I understood just what therapy was all about.

[Munin-Hugin]

Re: Should there be spaces for cis vs trans gendered persons?

I think that there shouldn't be a "women's" rape support group at all. There should simply be a rape support group. Male, female, transgender, hermaphrodite, neuter, some sort of alien gender we don't understand ... It doesn't matter. Because, as others have stated, no one's experience of trauma is the same as anyone else's. The purpose is that they experienced trauma of the same similarly violating nature, and are there to lend support to one another.

It's labels. For some reason, people like to cry out about how they're different but don't want to be treated differently, but hey look at me I'm different. This leads me to want to start a rant that I have that may end up making a bunch of folks here angry, so I'm just going to put a cork in it now before I start down that path.

There's so many things people jump to state "Oh no, but that's a trigger", that it's almost worrisome to walk down the damn street. Why would the story of a man or a transgender who had gotten raped be a trigger, but the story of a woman who was raped not be a trigger? It's asinine

[anunitu]

Re: Should there be spaces for cis vs trans gendered persons?

I should mention this,because some of the sessions were of the group verity. In one such session we were watching a video(I do not remember exactly about what) BUT about a third of the way into the video it indeed triggered almost half of the group(It did not do that to me however) remember some of these people had very severe mental health problems,not all clinical(Bi-poler or scitzo(SP)) for many of them it was from life trauma of one kind or another(Child abuse,both physical or mental)

So I do understand the "trigger" effect with some people. should add there was also an ex military that suffered from Post traumatic syndrome,and he had very specific triggers.

[thalassa]

Re: Should there be spaces for cis vs trans gendered persons?

I think that there shouldn't be a "women's" rape support group at all. There should simply be a rape support group. Male, female, transgender, hermaphrodite, neuter, some sort of alien gender we don't understand ... It doesn't matter. Because, as others have stated, no one's experience of trauma is the same as anyone else's. The purpose is that they experienced trauma of the same similarly violating nature, and are there to lend support to one another.

But for some victims, it DOES matter---which is sort of the point. There are also men's groups too...for this very reason. Its not about what I, or YOU, or WE think they SHOULD do or where we think they SHOULD feel comfortable, its about what makes them feel safe and supported to work through their personal trauma.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Should there be spaces for cis vs trans gendered persons?

I agree with what Rea'ya said above, generally, but insert an exception.

In the trans-inclusive women's rape survivors group Thalassa described, women had gathered in a place where they felt safe to talk about their experience of a terrible trauma, with, I believe the idea that, by doing so they could better cope with that trauma.

But they were unable to feel safe because of the inclusion of trans-gendered people, and, therefore, were unable to continue.

Rea'ya has stated (and I fully agree): "... NO ONE's experience of trauma is the same as anyone else's experience of trauma. PERIOD." What I don't agree with is that this means that those women who became unable to participate in that group due to the inclusion of trans-gendered folks need to just get over it. Because...

... if everybody's experience of trauma is different, then there are going to be people who, due to their experience of trauma, will not be able to cope with that.

So - should there be certain groups (like the women's rape survivor's group) that exclude xxxxxx (pick your gender variation)?

Absolutely! If there is a need. There is no real "inclusion" when it is based on "exclusion." People need to actually understand difference in others and what it means, then think with their minds rather that with theories of PCness.

In which case, do you exclude the transwoman because she is the one that makes the woman uncomfortable, or accept that the woman has emotional needs that that particular group can't meet and suggest she find a different group. The easy answer to that is it depends on the group... if one person makes everyone uncomfortable then it makes sense to ask that one person to leave, but if one person is uncomfortable and everyone else if fine, I think it's hardly fair to ask the transwoman to leave.

I agree that there is a need to make people feel safe in these sorts of groups, and I don't necessarily feel that a transwoman should feel personally offended if someone was made uncomfortable by their exclusion. But I don't think that excluding the transwoman would be the automatic answer. Why does she have to miss out because of one woman's emotional bias if everyone else if fine with her being there (hypothetically, I haven't read the actual article)?

It makes me think of the gym recently who revoked a woman's membership for kicking up a fuss about a transwoman being allowed in the female changing rooms. The transwoman had been a member for years, and a general member survey came back that most of the female members were fine with her being there, so it was the woman making the complaint who was asked to leave rather than the transwoman.

[anunitu]

Re: Should there be spaces for cis vs trans gendered persons?

We need to also remember we have lived in a BI gender world for a long time,and trying to change everyone's level of comfort takes a lot of time and Patience.
And some never will be able to transition into the brave new world..

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Should there be spaces for cis vs trans gendered persons?

OK, as I say (but I'll modify just a hair for clarity):

Inclusion isn't inclusion when it forces exclusion.

If one accepts the concept that all are different and that differences are meaningful & worthy of mutual respect, one can not force one's concepts of "what they should do" on others. This is why existentialists make crappy preachers...

In the case under discussion, TRUE inclusion occurs when all parties understand all parties are different. True inclusion would have a group of transgender only (for those who prefer it), biological female only (for those who prefer it), and a mixed group (for those who prefer it).

Only in this way is difference allowed and inclusion accomplished without imposing "you should" on the trauma survivors.

"Inclusion" does not always have to mean "all together in one happy group holding hands and singing kumbyah." Sometimes it is going to have to mean understanding and equal access.

[anunitu]

Re: Should there be spaces for cis vs trans gendered persons?

Remember it is not all that long ago where these questions might have involved race,or even culture differences,even as far as levels of intelligence.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Should there be spaces for cis vs trans gendered persons?

OK, as I say (but I'll modify just a hair for clarity):

Inclusion isn't inclusion when it forces exclusion.

If one accepts the concept that all are different and that differences are meaningful & worthy of mutual respect, one can not force one's concepts of "what they should do" on others. This is why existentialists make crappy preachers...

In the case under discussion, TRUE inclusion occurs when all parties understand all parties are different. True inclusion would have a group of transgender only (for those who prefer it), biological female only (for those who prefer it), and a mixed group (for those who prefer it).

Only in this way is difference allowed and inclusion accomplished without imposing "you should" on the trauma survivors.

"Inclusion" does not always have to mean "all together in one happy group holding hands and singing kumbyah." Sometimes it is going to have to mean understanding and equal access.

This I can agree with.

[anunitu]

Re: Should there be spaces for cis vs trans gendered persons?

Something most would not be aware of if you never were in the mental health system. There was a separate section reserved for Asians. It had to do with a much different perception on a cultural level about mental health.

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Also do not deny that from time to time you yourself made jokes about the Short bus.....

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We are, we humans sometimes not very sensitive.