Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

If animals are sentient, what to do?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    If animals are sentient, what to do?

    There are actually two questions in this.

    1) are at least some animals sentient (i.e.: are they aware of themselves as individuals, and of others as individuals, and do they respond to others as individuals via "feelings")?

    2) if the answer to #1 is yes, what does that mean for us humans and our dealings with animals?

    Here's an article worth reading:

    The science of animal consciousness

    Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.


    #2
    Re: If animals are sentient, what to do?

    I know we've touched upon this in other threads, but I'm glad that you created one just for this specific topic. There's a lot of arguments out there for both sides, each siting scientific studies, observations, and the like, sometimes even using the same source for both sides of the argument. I'm not going to go delving too deeply into what others have written so much as using my own observations, and will try to remain objective though it may be difficult.

    I think it's pretty clear that, at the very least, mammals and avians show definite signs of sentience. I've always been a pet "owner" (which I put in quotes since with the sentience question the ownership of such could be considered slavery), mainly having cats but there have been some dogs along the way as well. One of the proofs of sentience is the ability to recognize others as individuals. This is a pretty obvious one, as I've seen animals respond differently to different people even upon first being exposed to them. Even if you take the visual differences away, I smell, walk, sound, move, and even my body temperature is different then those of my wife. My cats approach us both in different manners, their vocalizations are different depending upon who they are "talking" to, and they know they can get away with different things depending upon which one of us is present.

    Language is another sign of sentience. Corvids have been known to point, gesture with wings, use slight of hand, and have a greatly varied vocabulary and dialect from one place to another. I remember reading something that said in one forested area, they discovered over 70 different dialects, each one being specific to the various family groups. Future generations of crows are taught by the older ones to avoid certain things, so far as to stay away from particularly dressed humans, even though the young had never seen that type of dress before.

    A third is self awareness. They've tried to test this using mirrors, but those tests were sort of silly. Back to cats, if they were not self aware (using the mirror idea), they would not so casually walk by a mirror and ignore the sudden appearance of another animal. One of my wife's cats used to sit in front of her vanity mirror and groom himself then pause, looking at his reflection for a moment, and then start again targeting different areas to groom each time as though he was taking stock of what he looked like and deciding to fix those specific areas. Folks will say their animals all have different personalities so far as possessing senses of humor, and I'd agree with this 100%. They find different things amusing, and play in different ways. That surely is a demonstration of their individuality.

    They're also very aware of feelings, both emotional and physical. Granted, they must think we're a bunch of wimps when it comes to playtime because when they scratch at us it hurts but when they scratch at each other it's no big deal. They learn to play with a softer touch with us, appear to come to comfort us when we are feeling down, and will avoid stepping on or brushing against injuries we might have.

    So yeah, they're sentient. I think as far as our dealings with them goes, as a whole perhaps a universal understanding of their sentience may bring about a much more humane treatment of the ones we use for food and the like. It wouldn't make the continued eating of them wrong, as they eat each other on a regular basis as that is just nature, but perhaps we, as a whole, may come to show them a bit more respect in the roles they play in nature and the roles they play in our lives.

    Comment


      #3
      Re: If animals are sentient, what to do?

      Originally posted by Munin-Hugin View Post
      I know we've touched upon this in other threads, but I'm glad that you created one just for this specific topic. There's a lot of arguments out there for both sides, each siting scientific studies, observations, and the like, sometimes even using the same source for both sides of the argument. I'm not going to go delving too deeply into what others have written so much as using my own observations, and will try to remain objective though it may be difficult.

      I think it's pretty clear that, at the very least, mammals and avians show definite signs of sentience. I've always been a pet "owner" (which I put in quotes since with the sentience question the ownership of such could be considered slavery), mainly having cats but there have been some dogs along the way as well. One of the proofs of sentience is the ability to recognize others as individuals. This is a pretty obvious one, as I've seen animals respond differently to different people even upon first being exposed to them. Even if you take the visual differences away, I smell, walk, sound, move, and even my body temperature is different then those of my wife. My cats approach us both in different manners, their vocalizations are different depending upon who they are "talking" to, and they know they can get away with different things depending upon which one of us is present.

      Language is another sign of sentience. Corvids have been known to point, gesture with wings, use slight of hand, and have a greatly varied vocabulary and dialect from one place to another. I remember reading something that said in one forested area, they discovered over 70 different dialects, each one being specific to the various family groups. Future generations of crows are taught by the older ones to avoid certain things, so far as to stay away from particularly dressed humans, even though the young had never seen that type of dress before.

      A third is self awareness. They've tried to test this using mirrors, but those tests were sort of silly. Back to cats, if they were not self aware (using the mirror idea), they would not so casually walk by a mirror and ignore the sudden appearance of another animal. One of my wife's cats used to sit in front of her vanity mirror and groom himself then pause, looking at his reflection for a moment, and then start again targeting different areas to groom each time as though he was taking stock of what he looked like and deciding to fix those specific areas. Folks will say their animals all have different personalities so far as possessing senses of humor, and I'd agree with this 100%. They find different things amusing, and play in different ways. That surely is a demonstration of their individuality.

      They're also very aware of feelings, both emotional and physical. Granted, they must think we're a bunch of wimps when it comes to playtime because when they scratch at us it hurts but when they scratch at each other it's no big deal. They learn to play with a softer touch with us, appear to come to comfort us when we are feeling down, and will avoid stepping on or brushing against injuries we might have.

      So yeah, they're sentient. I think as far as our dealings with them goes, as a whole perhaps a universal understanding of their sentience may bring about a much more humane treatment of the ones we use for food and the like. It wouldn't make the continued eating of them wrong, as they eat each other on a regular basis as that is just nature, but perhaps we, as a whole, may come to show them a bit more respect in the roles they play in nature and the roles they play in our lives.
      Well said, I can agree with all your points. Consider my original none Abrahamic training was in Shamanism, not only do I agree that they are sentient but even have their own spirit and metaphysical abilities. I also agree that this doesn't mean should stop eating meat for it is part of the balance of life

      Comment


        #4
        Re: If animals are sentient, what to do?

        I suspect many animals are a damned sight more sentient than a lot of people...
        www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


        Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

        Comment


          #5
          Re: If animals are sentient, what to do?

          African Grey parrots are sentient. Zero doubt.
          sigpic
          Can you hear me, Major Tom? I think I love you.

          Comment


            #6
            Re: If animals are sentient, what to do?

            I am thinking every insect on the planet is a secret agent from the secret organization..Buzz Gordon and the flash in the pans.
            MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

            all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
            NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
            don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




            sigpic

            my new page here,let me know what you think.


            nothing but the shadow of what was

            witchvox
            http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

            Comment


              #7
              Re: If animals are sentient, what to do?

              Originally posted by Hawkfeathers View Post
              African Grey parrots are sentient. Zero doubt.
              Parrots are one of the animals that are up-top of the list
              Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: If animals are sentient, what to do?

                There is the crow...I watched a nature thing on PBS Those birds are crazy smart...

                http://earthfireinstitute.org/2015/0...s-and-magpies/
                MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                sigpic

                my new page here,let me know what you think.


                nothing but the shadow of what was

                witchvox
                http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: If animals are sentient, what to do?

                  My wife and I were chatting about Corvids being too damn smart for OUR own good, and she mentioned a story about a parrot. I guess the bird was able to hold very very basic conversations, instead of simple mimicking. And out of the blue, it asked "Am I pretty? What color am I?"

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: If animals are sentient, what to do?

                    Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                    There are actually two questions in this.

                    1) are at least some animals sentient (i.e.: are they aware of themselves as individuals, and of others as individuals, and do they respond to others as individuals via "feelings")?

                    2) if the answer to #1 is yes, what does that mean for us humans and our dealings with animals?

                    Here's an article worth reading:

                    The science of animal consciousness
                    1) In my opinion, yes. I'm not going to bother with why I think that, because it's fairly evident to anyone who knows me. Plus Munin-Hugin put up some pretty valid points that don't really need repeating.

                    2) We should treat them like individuals who have feelings (because they are and they do). We should avoid anthropomorphizing them and accept that they are a different species and think and act differently than we do. We should be aware that they feel pain (yes, all of them). We should be aware that they experience anxiety, fear and stress. We should be aware that they experience pleasure, joy and contentment. We should attempt to be sensitive to their needs in all interactions with them (not the needs we think they have, but the ones they actually have). We should kill them as quickly and painlessly as possible. We should accept that they actually don't necessarily see death and being eaten in the same way that we do. We should pull our heads in and stop deluding ourselves that humans are the only intelligent species on the planet, or that humans are the supreme species, or that humans know what is best for everyone else. We aren't and we don't.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: If animals are sentient, what to do?

                      I'm going to mostly agree with Rae'ya, with what is either one addition or one caveat, depending on her opinion on the matter.

                      Humans, mostly because of a quirk of evolution, have a culture and technology that encourages and allows us what I think is a unique insight into the cosmos, from the very small to the very large. For better or for worse (and I think it could be for better if we would get our collective heads out of our rears), we have a capacity for self-awareness, for a sort of cosmic awareness*, and for inquiry into both that other species on this planet, at this time in their evolution, do not.



                      *I can't think of a good term for "relative awareness of things outside their immediate envrionment and seasonal survival"
                      Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                      sigpic

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: If animals are sentient, what to do?

                        For my, they have always seemed obvious that they (at least the ones I've known well) were more or less self aware. It has been convenient for a lot of people to view them as organic machinery. I'm glad that it is now acceptable to say they have feelings, friends, etc. (not the same as people do, but in their own way).

                        For myself...

                        I think I may decide that I do not want to eat them. Hmmm... I don't know... If I do, it will be a personal decision, not at all relevant to the choices of others, though.

                        - - - Updated - - -

                        Oh, by the way...

                        How can you not love those little alien invaders that evolved right here on earth?

                        Check out this cute octopus.

                        The moral of the story here, by the way, is: If an octopus taps you on the shoulder, don't run!
                        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: If animals are sentient, what to do?

                          Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                          For my, they have always seemed obvious that they (at least the ones I've known well) were more or less self aware. It has been convenient for a lot of people to view them as organic machinery. I'm glad that it is now acceptable to say they have feelings, friends, etc. (not the same as people do, but in their own way).
                          Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                          For better or for worse (and I think it could be for better if we would get our collective heads out of our rears), we have a capacity for self-awareness, for a sort of cosmic awareness*, and for inquiry into both that other species on this planet, at this time in their evolution, do not"

                          Yeah, I suck with vocab at 5 AM...I think I meant self-actualization.
                          Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                          sigpic

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: If animals are sentient, what to do?

                            Originally posted by Tylluan Penry View Post
                            I suspect many animals are a damned sight more sentient than a lot of people...
                            So much agreement.
                            I'm in the "yes" category for animals being sentient and it's why I have a tendency to treat my fur babies and wild animals like "persons" in their own right.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: If animals are sentient, what to do?

                              Originally posted by Ljubezen View Post
                              ... I have a tendency to treat my fur babies and wild animals like "persons" in their own right.
                              Torey can attest to how often I'm saying things like "Ants are people too!" or "Leave him alone, he's just trying to live!" or "He's allowed, it's his yard too" or something like that. And he's been known to complain that I care more about Noodle (the lorikeet) than I do about him (which is not exactly true, I just get less frustrated when Noodle is being noisy than he does).

                              Which makes me sound like one of those over the top people who wont even step on a bug. But I'm not... I just have a fairly strict code about when it's appropriate to kill something and when it's not. And I'm very sensitive to when humans are forcing their human-centric ideals and expectations onto non-human species.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X