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The term "shamanism"... borrowed or appropriated?

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  • #16
    Re: Pagan Pet Peeves

    Originally posted by thalassa View Post
    What word do we have for it? What word has a strong history in the English language that is specific to describe shamansim as a trans cultural phenomenon?
    Spirit worker. Spiritual healer. Witch doctor. Medicine man. Cunning man. Hedgerider.

    Most of which were terms used by anthropologists before the term 'shaman' became common in academia.

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    • #17
      Re: Pagan Pet Peeves

      Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
      In that case, I would like to suggest that developing a general term for a category of practices indicates an advance in knowledge - the realization that a wide variety of practices from a multitude of cultures share a set of similar traits.

      In many ways this is a meaningful discovery. It tells us something about how the mind/brain operates and about how it processes certain types ineffable experience, for example.

      Terms for categories do not harm specific instances in a well ordered brain. What they do is open new avenues for exploration.
      I'd agree to a certain level but then it begins to detract and to my perspective actually reduce vice enhance. Placed in an academic setting and using identifiable and repeatable comparison's I think it can be a valuable tool. Yet once it passes from academia into general usage then it becomes what ever a person wants it to be or believes it to be. Academic Shamanism is often a far cry from how the pagan community in general defines the word much less utilizes it.

      Figure within the general pagan community it's hard enough to get a usable definition of things like "Witchcraft", "Wicca", etc when the belief and implied accepted practice is it's what ever you want it to be. So Shamanism becomes conflated with Totemism, Animism, Animatism, and a hundred other "ism's" I can't even think of right now. That doesn't even touch the cultural or ethnic practices that are lumped under it because people think they are close enough such as Hedge Rider, Medicine Person, Berserker (in part how it is used in Nordic beliefs), Skin Walker (not in the Navajo concept) and thousands of other words.

      That misinformation I think one of the leading causes of Shamanism within the pagan community being so strongly equated to "Healing" when culturally that was just a small portion of how those things were applied or utilized. Tending to outright ignore the many fertility / fecundity aspects, ignoring the warrior clan aspects of battle and death, ignoring the religious supporting aspect. Figure consider Shamanism is normally a practice not a spiritual pathway as the Shaman follows the spirituality of his / her people and uses the otherwords to aide and assist not to be a spiritual belief of their own.

      It's become so corrupt that in many instances it's referred to plastic shamanism or white shamanism in a derogatory usage.

      - - - Updated - - -

      Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
      Spirit worker. Spiritual healer. Witch doctor. Medicine man. Cunning man. Hedgerider.

      Most of which were terms used by anthropologists before the term 'shaman' became common in academia.
      From Native American usage I suppose you could add things like Pipe Holder, Keeper of the Sacred Relic, Keeper of the Sacred Bundle, Shirt Wearer though today all those under white usage get lumped into Medicine Person. Then there are the negatives such as Raven Mocker, Skin Walker, etc that apply to people who use those traits for evil as defined in their own cultural parameters.

      Gets difficult to give specifics though in that for most of them the "Shaman" person or people live it as an aspect of their culture and society and you can not separate it from it's total presence. It's more than just traits or practices for those are held in place and given meaning by the social, cultural, ethical and moral influences which make up the people. That is the aspect I see most often stripped out by core-shamanism and trying to make it work as an individual belief system. To me sort of like saying these are the bones that make up the body while ignoring all the muscles, tendons, organs, etc that actually are what give the body life and form.

      - - - Updated - - -

      Originally posted by SonoftheWaters View Post
      You know, I have been studying a very long time and this argument on Shamanism/Shaman being the correct term or not has been coming up only over the last few years, what does it matter if it gets the message across? I grew up on the Res and all the shamans and elders I have ever talked to just said shaman unless they were speaking their native tongue, which most don't anymore, this goes for the ones in Alaska and the ones in Oklahoma. Where did this argument really come from in the first place?
      I can say this argument from my pathwalk has been around since at least 1977, so for me it's not something that has just arisen. Very closely tied to the argument that went on for a number of years trying to tie Totemism and Shamanism together. Ignoring the perspective that Totem's didn't apply to shamanic work or practices in the manner that the word came to be recognized as, especially as paganism came more into the open in the 90's and later.

      I do admit you intrigue me in using elders and reservation's and placing "Shaman" as a word they used. While I have never been on a reservation the Eastern Tsagali (Cherokee) I've know would never use the word Shaman to describe their people or practices. The only Lakota, Dakota, Nakota, Oglala (Sioux nations) I've ever spoken to that used Shaman was a person who wrote books to sell to white people and make a dime off the practice. Pretty much disowned by their elders and heads of those nations. In fact a great many so called Native writer's who use "Shaman" or "Shamanic" or even "Medicine Person" to sell books have been either disowned by their supposed nations and called out for it or lay claim to a nation that can never be proven. Most not even willing to speak to anyone outside of their respective nation about their spirituality and cultural practices as they are all rolled into one. I point out the Tsagali and Lakota as those two nations seem to be the most exploited of the Native American peoples though some other's are hit piece meal like the Zuni and their Fetches.

      As for the argument I'd say it started in academia some years ago as the notion of cultural appropriation became more and more debated. Then crossed over into the debate of exploiting people's of color and robbing their cultural faces and words / concepts. The academic debate probably as early as the late 50's early 60's, the cultural and ethnic debate I started seeing in the late 90's though it seem's to have taken hold in my opinion more in say the last 10 - 15 years.
      I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Pagan Pet Peeves

        Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
        Figure within the general pagan community it's hard enough to get a usable definition of things like "Witchcraft", "Wicca", etc when the belief and implied accepted practice is it's what ever you want it to be...
        Yes! Isn't it wonderful!

        No Bible, no preachers, no inquisition, no dead ideas engraved on ancient stone, even the dictionary has been executed in the name of human freedom and unending creativity!

        Beauty, pure beauty!
        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: The term "shamanism"... borrowed or appropriated?

          I would favor you with my beliefs,but I am way to lazy to bother....and you would not understand anyway.
          MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

          all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
          NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
          don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




          sigpic

          my new page here,let me know what you think.


          nothing but the shadow of what was

          witchvox
          http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: The term "shamanism"... borrowed or appropriated?

            Originally posted by anunitu View Post
            I would favor you with my beliefs, but ...you would not understand anyway.
            I know you, so I know this is a complement...

            Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Pagan Pet Peeves

              Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
              Yes! Isn't it wonderful!

              No Bible, no preachers, no inquisition, no dead ideas engraved on ancient stone, even the dictionary has been executed in the name of human freedom and unending creativity!

              Beauty, pure beauty!
              Is it though? That's why we have people burning styrofoam ice chests and saying its part of their religious practices and celebrations. Toxic fumes none the less but hey it's their right and religious freedom to do so. It's why most of the so called practices will never gain public or governmental support because there is no structure, codes, etc and no governing body to hold itself accountable. It's so many practices look like some sort of Harry Potter inspired story right along with the usage of muggle as a derogatory slam against people. It's why so many divinity figures, land spirits and such are being painted as some lovey dovey happy go lucky mommy and daddy figure while ignoring the darker aspects of their lore and mythology.

              Sorry do not see it as beauty only see it as the demise and watering down of what so many fought for through the 50's to 80's to get some sort of public awareness and distancing from Satanism as it was known. In many ways all I see today is people going to the sprinkle counter bowl on the ice cream counter and saying I found paganism. No ethical influences, no moral questions and revelations, no speculations or pondering of who, what or why regarding life, death, continuation, etc, no mystical explorations, no actual changing of their character. Nope just go to the sprinkle counter, select your god / goddess, spirit type creature, add a bit of this a bit of that without any of the actual filaments that hold the thing together as glue and say I am now a _________. Well that and a lot of laying blame every where except upon themselves for the issues that trouble their lives. After all it's always somebody else's fought as to why they fail, why they struggle, why they can't get ahead, why the world hates them, why the world is against them, etc.

              Edited to add though that many of those questions were the domain of the Shamanic like practitioner to see who, what or how a person, people, nation, etc pissed off some entity from the spirit world and how to make amends. Whether amends involved restitution, crossover and purification, removal of foreign influences, etc.
              I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Pagan Pet Peeves

                Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
                Is it though? That's why we have people burning styrofoam ice chests and saying its part of their religious practices and celebrations.

                SNIP

                Well that and a lot of laying blame every where except upon themselves for the issues that trouble their lives. After all it's always somebody else's fought as to why they fail, why they struggle, why they can't get ahead, why the world hates them, why the world is against them, etc.


                The Crusades, the Inquisition, the Duggars. You see this with religion that has structure, dogma, definitions, etc.



                So, yeah, I'd say stepping away from essentialism is a good thing.
                “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

                “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
                ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

                "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
                ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

                "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

                Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                sigpic

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                • #23
                  Re: Pagan Pet Peeves

                  Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                  The Crusades, the Inquisition, the Duggars. You see this with religion that has structure, dogma, definitions, etc.



                  So, yeah, I'd say stepping away from essentialism is a good thing.
                  Yeah you see it with governments, social orders within society regardless of religion or spirituality, ethnic groups regardless of religious / spiritual practice, within economic strata again regardless of spiritual / religious practices. So blaming it upon spiritual / religious might have some influences or it might have none but it makes a beautiful justification for why something is a bad thing when used as an argument against or justification for why something exists. Whether it is actually the causes really didn't matter as long as you can say it was religious in justification. Doesn't even have to be the main justification only has to be present in some capacity.
                  I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: The term "shamanism"... borrowed or appropriated?

                    Short music that was a theme in my youth in the 70's

                    Buffalo Springfield - For What Its Worth

                    MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                    all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                    NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                    don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                    sigpic

                    my new page here,let me know what you think.


                    nothing but the shadow of what was

                    witchvox
                    http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: The term "shamanism"... borrowed or appropriated?

                      Burning ice chests? There have always been assholes, and there always will be. One learns to live with it.

                      Government support? What the fook is the government's business in supporting or not supporting religion. When they reach out their hands to do either, cut them off.

                      Harry Potter? Children will play, and fantasy is essential to growth.

                      Lovey Dovey land spirits? If land spirits are real, and if they don't like being seen as lovey dovey, I imagine they will clear it up themselves.

                      For the whole of the second paragraph, Monsno_leedra, you are observing shallow people in their natural habitat. The shallow will always be like that. If it isn't religion, it will be Kardashians.
                      Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: The term "shamanism"... borrowed or appropriated?

                        You guys type to fast.....aghhhhhhhhhhhhh
                        MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                        all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                        NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                        don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                        sigpic

                        my new page here,let me know what you think.


                        nothing but the shadow of what was

                        witchvox
                        http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: The term "shamanism"... borrowed or appropriated?

                          Originally posted by anunitu View Post
                          Short music that was a theme in my youth in the 70's

                          Buffalo Springfield - For What Its Worth

                          https://youtu.be/f5M_Ttstbgs
                          You need to start issuing Flashback Trigger Warnings. Now I have an irresistible urge to wear paisley with a nehru collar...
                          Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: The term "shamanism"... borrowed or appropriated?

                            Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                            Burning ice chests? There have always been assholes, and there always will be. One learns to live with it.

                            Government support? What the fook is the government's business in supporting or not supporting religion. When they reach out their hands to do either, cut them off.

                            Harry Potter? Children will play, and fantasy is essential to growth.

                            Lovey Dovey land spirits? If land spirits are real, and if they don't like being seen as lovey dovey, I imagine they will clear it up themselves.

                            For the whole of the second paragraph, Monsno_leedra, you are observing shallow people in their natural habitat. The shallow will always be like that. If it isn't religion, it will be Kardashians.

                            Oh I agree there will always be the playgans out there, the idiots who do more harm than good and use religion / spirituality as an excuse. Whether they fall into the playgan description, fluff bunny description or simply the fool doesn't really matter though until they become the visible face of the beliefs and practices. Unfortunately they will make the visible face far more often than those who practice and are sincere about their beliefs. Sincere not being the correct word but it eludes me at the moment.

                            Recognition of a spirituality / religion does not mean a government changes, controls or approves of it but it does give it protection and equality. Now as to what equality means well that is a question that's been asked for years. It's like the cartoon often seen of three kids standing outside a ball field trying to see over the fence. One is tall who see's with no problem, one medium who can jump and see and one short who simply can not no matter what he does. Equality is them all a box to stand on with all having the same box but having the same box doesn't mean they have the same results. Thus giving the smallest child two boxes to see over the wall is not equally but it is being fair, as is giving the medium child one box to see over the fence and allowing the largest child to see simply standing there. The government doesn't ensure all will have the same results but does ensure they all get a box and supposedly not punished for asking for their box. Nor should the government be responsible for telling people how the boxes have to be handed out to ensure an implied equality though that does happen.

                            Regarding the lovey dovey all I can say is when you only see the aspect that you want you'll never see the negative even if it falls upon you like a ton of bricks. Far to many project that I think. Often, in my opinion, creating their own internal landscape creation of supposed entities that only function in the manner they desire and want. Like many of the so called white lighters who think only good will come if all you believe is good of people. makes a nice fantasy world for certain unfortunately real life seldom if ever works that way in my opinion.
                            I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Pagan Pet Peeves

                              Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post

                              Sorry do not see it as beauty only see it as the demise and watering down of what so many fought for through the 50's to 80's to get some sort of public awareness and distancing from Satanism as it was known. In many ways all I see today is people going to the sprinkle counter bowl on the ice cream counter and saying I found paganism. No ethical influences, no moral questions and revelations, no speculations or pondering of who, what or why regarding life, death, continuation, etc, no mystical explorations, no actual changing of their character. Nope just go to the sprinkle counter, select your god / goddess, spirit type creature, add a bit of this a bit of that without any of the actual filaments that hold the thing together as glue and say I am now a _________. Well that and a lot of laying blame every where except upon themselves for the issues that trouble their lives. After all it's always somebody else's fought as to why they fail, why they struggle, why they can't get ahead, why the world hates them, why the world is against them, etc.
                              .
                              How does one contain a religion. The roman Christian church had a solution. You structure your religion after the very successful Roman army with a very structured hierarchy then you wipe out the competition. They effectively eliminated the ebionites, the marcionites, the gnostics, and any others deviating from the true divine path. But they even failed in the long run as the protestant reformation proved that even with a sacred text you can create a full spectrum of beliefs including one where you pass around a live rattlesnake to remove the unfaithful. Having said that I understand the concern of too much diversity. There are pagan forums which rejoice in diversity to the point of chaos as members post of mix and match gods/goddess and beliefs to the point of anything goes. While this is a wonderful create atmosphere it raises a question of does it really mean anything. Does it become more fiction/fantasy than something with a deeper meaning of our relationship to our world. The avoidance of finding common beliefs/practices can be as much of a problem as and enforced rigid system with no leeway for any variation.

                              In the case of shamanism it had an authentic start as anthropologists used the Shaman model of the Tungusic people and recognized similar patterns not only in Eurasia but all over the world. Many cultures in the present and the past used altered states of consciousness to connect with the spirit world and the similarities of what they had in common were amazing. The fact that so many diversified people could share patterns of practice with the Tungusic Shaman suggests something more meaningful about this pattern but I just think they should have used a word for the technique rather than the name of a specific religious sect. Thus we could have said that the medicine man of Native americans use altered states of conscious in a similar patter to the Sami religious leader or the Tungusic Shaman. In a similar way I can identify with the belief of the Lakota that the other inhabitants of the this earth are all my relations but I do not claim to be Lakota. I also do not know any Native Americans that would call themselves a Shaman even if they may use similar practices. In fact there are many Native Americans who get angry if you mention Shamans or spirit animals.

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                              • #30
                                Re: Pagan Pet Peeves

                                Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                                Spirit worker. Spiritual healer. Witch doctor. Medicine man. Cunning man. Hedgerider.

                                Most of which were terms used by anthropologists before the term 'shaman' became common in academia.
                                Yeah. So when you say those words I immediately think 'Shaman'.
                                Satan is my spirit animal

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