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Thread: The term "shamanism"... borrowed or appropriated?

  1. #21
    Silver Member monsno_leedra's Avatar
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    Re: Pagan Pet Peeves

    Quote Originally Posted by B. de Corbin View Post
    Yes! Isn't it wonderful!

    No Bible, no preachers, no inquisition, no dead ideas engraved on ancient stone, even the dictionary has been executed in the name of human freedom and unending creativity!

    Beauty, pure beauty!
    Is it though? That's why we have people burning styrofoam ice chests and saying its part of their religious practices and celebrations. Toxic fumes none the less but hey it's their right and religious freedom to do so. It's why most of the so called practices will never gain public or governmental support because there is no structure, codes, etc and no governing body to hold itself accountable. It's so many practices look like some sort of Harry Potter inspired story right along with the usage of muggle as a derogatory slam against people. It's why so many divinity figures, land spirits and such are being painted as some lovey dovey happy go lucky mommy and daddy figure while ignoring the darker aspects of their lore and mythology.

    Sorry do not see it as beauty only see it as the demise and watering down of what so many fought for through the 50's to 80's to get some sort of public awareness and distancing from Satanism as it was known. In many ways all I see today is people going to the sprinkle counter bowl on the ice cream counter and saying I found paganism. No ethical influences, no moral questions and revelations, no speculations or pondering of who, what or why regarding life, death, continuation, etc, no mystical explorations, no actual changing of their character. Nope just go to the sprinkle counter, select your god / goddess, spirit type creature, add a bit of this a bit of that without any of the actual filaments that hold the thing together as glue and say I am now a _________. Well that and a lot of laying blame every where except upon themselves for the issues that trouble their lives. After all it's always somebody else's fought as to why they fail, why they struggle, why they can't get ahead, why the world hates them, why the world is against them, etc.

    Edited to add though that many of those questions were the domain of the Shamanic like practitioner to see who, what or how a person, people, nation, etc pissed off some entity from the spirit world and how to make amends. Whether amends involved restitution, crossover and purification, removal of foreign influences, etc.
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  2. #22
    sea witch thalassa's Avatar
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    Re: Pagan Pet Peeves

    Quote Originally Posted by monsno_leedra View Post
    Is it though? That's why we have people burning styrofoam ice chests and saying its part of their religious practices and celebrations.

    SNIP

    Well that and a lot of laying blame every where except upon themselves for the issues that trouble their lives. After all it's always somebody else's fought as to why they fail, why they struggle, why they can't get ahead, why the world hates them, why the world is against them, etc.


    The Crusades, the Inquisition, the Duggars. You see this with religion that has structure, dogma, definitions, etc.



    So, yeah, I'd say stepping away from essentialism is a good thing.
    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

    “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
    ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

    "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
    ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

    "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

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  3. #23
    Silver Member monsno_leedra's Avatar
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    Re: Pagan Pet Peeves

    Quote Originally Posted by thalassa View Post
    The Crusades, the Inquisition, the Duggars. You see this with religion that has structure, dogma, definitions, etc.



    So, yeah, I'd say stepping away from essentialism is a good thing.
    Yeah you see it with governments, social orders within society regardless of religion or spirituality, ethnic groups regardless of religious / spiritual practice, within economic strata again regardless of spiritual / religious practices. So blaming it upon spiritual / religious might have some influences or it might have none but it makes a beautiful justification for why something is a bad thing when used as an argument against or justification for why something exists. Whether it is actually the causes really didn't matter as long as you can say it was religious in justification. Doesn't even have to be the main justification only has to be present in some capacity.
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  4. #24
    Live and learn anunitu's Avatar
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    Re: The term "shamanism"... borrowed or appropriated?

    Short music that was a theme in my youth in the 70's

    Buffalo Springfield - For What Its Worth

    https://youtu.be/f5M_Ttstbgs
    MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

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    don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




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  5. #25
    The Gaze of the Abyss B. de Corbin's Avatar
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    Re: The term "shamanism"... borrowed or appropriated?

    Burning ice chests? There have always been assholes, and there always will be. One learns to live with it.

    Government support? What the fook is the government's business in supporting or not supporting religion. When they reach out their hands to do either, cut them off.

    Harry Potter? Children will play, and fantasy is essential to growth.

    Lovey Dovey land spirits? If land spirits are real, and if they don't like being seen as lovey dovey, I imagine they will clear it up themselves.

    For the whole of the second paragraph, Monsno_leedra, you are observing shallow people in their natural habitat. The shallow will always be like that. If it isn't religion, it will be Kardashians.
    Those who have suffered understand suffering and therefore extend their hand.

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  6. #26
    Live and learn anunitu's Avatar
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    Re: The term "shamanism"... borrowed or appropriated?

    You guys type to fast.....aghhhhhhhhhhhhh
    MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

    all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
    NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
    don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




    http://www.paganforum.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=186&dateline=1330020104

    my new page here,let me know what you think.


    nothing but the shadow of what was

  7. #27
    The Gaze of the Abyss B. de Corbin's Avatar
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    Re: The term "shamanism"... borrowed or appropriated?

    Quote Originally Posted by anunitu View Post
    Short music that was a theme in my youth in the 70's

    Buffalo Springfield - For What Its Worth

    https://youtu.be/f5M_Ttstbgs
    You need to start issuing Flashback Trigger Warnings. Now I have an irresistible urge to wear paisley with a nehru collar...
    Those who have suffered understand suffering and therefore extend their hand.

    I can't do everything, but I can do something.

  8. #28
    Silver Member monsno_leedra's Avatar
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    Re: The term "shamanism"... borrowed or appropriated?

    Quote Originally Posted by B. de Corbin View Post
    Burning ice chests? There have always been assholes, and there always will be. One learns to live with it.

    Government support? What the fook is the government's business in supporting or not supporting religion. When they reach out their hands to do either, cut them off.

    Harry Potter? Children will play, and fantasy is essential to growth.

    Lovey Dovey land spirits? If land spirits are real, and if they don't like being seen as lovey dovey, I imagine they will clear it up themselves.

    For the whole of the second paragraph, Monsno_leedra, you are observing shallow people in their natural habitat. The shallow will always be like that. If it isn't religion, it will be Kardashians.

    Oh I agree there will always be the playgans out there, the idiots who do more harm than good and use religion / spirituality as an excuse. Whether they fall into the playgan description, fluff bunny description or simply the fool doesn't really matter though until they become the visible face of the beliefs and practices. Unfortunately they will make the visible face far more often than those who practice and are sincere about their beliefs. Sincere not being the correct word but it eludes me at the moment.

    Recognition of a spirituality / religion does not mean a government changes, controls or approves of it but it does give it protection and equality. Now as to what equality means well that is a question that's been asked for years. It's like the cartoon often seen of three kids standing outside a ball field trying to see over the fence. One is tall who see's with no problem, one medium who can jump and see and one short who simply can not no matter what he does. Equality is them all a box to stand on with all having the same box but having the same box doesn't mean they have the same results. Thus giving the smallest child two boxes to see over the wall is not equally but it is being fair, as is giving the medium child one box to see over the fence and allowing the largest child to see simply standing there. The government doesn't ensure all will have the same results but does ensure they all get a box and supposedly not punished for asking for their box. Nor should the government be responsible for telling people how the boxes have to be handed out to ensure an implied equality though that does happen.

    Regarding the lovey dovey all I can say is when you only see the aspect that you want you'll never see the negative even if it falls upon you like a ton of bricks. Far to many project that I think. Often, in my opinion, creating their own internal landscape creation of supposed entities that only function in the manner they desire and want. Like many of the so called white lighters who think only good will come if all you believe is good of people. makes a nice fantasy world for certain unfortunately real life seldom if ever works that way in my opinion.
    I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

  9. #29
    Member sionnach's Avatar
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    Re: Pagan Pet Peeves

    Quote Originally Posted by monsno_leedra View Post

    Sorry do not see it as beauty only see it as the demise and watering down of what so many fought for through the 50's to 80's to get some sort of public awareness and distancing from Satanism as it was known. In many ways all I see today is people going to the sprinkle counter bowl on the ice cream counter and saying I found paganism. No ethical influences, no moral questions and revelations, no speculations or pondering of who, what or why regarding life, death, continuation, etc, no mystical explorations, no actual changing of their character. Nope just go to the sprinkle counter, select your god / goddess, spirit type creature, add a bit of this a bit of that without any of the actual filaments that hold the thing together as glue and say I am now a _________. Well that and a lot of laying blame every where except upon themselves for the issues that trouble their lives. After all it's always somebody else's fought as to why they fail, why they struggle, why they can't get ahead, why the world hates them, why the world is against them, etc.
    .
    How does one contain a religion. The roman Christian church had a solution. You structure your religion after the very successful Roman army with a very structured hierarchy then you wipe out the competition. They effectively eliminated the ebionites, the marcionites, the gnostics, and any others deviating from the true divine path. But they even failed in the long run as the protestant reformation proved that even with a sacred text you can create a full spectrum of beliefs including one where you pass around a live rattlesnake to remove the unfaithful. Having said that I understand the concern of too much diversity. There are pagan forums which rejoice in diversity to the point of chaos as members post of mix and match gods/goddess and beliefs to the point of anything goes. While this is a wonderful create atmosphere it raises a question of does it really mean anything. Does it become more fiction/fantasy than something with a deeper meaning of our relationship to our world. The avoidance of finding common beliefs/practices can be as much of a problem as and enforced rigid system with no leeway for any variation.

    In the case of shamanism it had an authentic start as anthropologists used the Shaman model of the Tungusic people and recognized similar patterns not only in Eurasia but all over the world. Many cultures in the present and the past used altered states of consciousness to connect with the spirit world and the similarities of what they had in common were amazing. The fact that so many diversified people could share patterns of practice with the Tungusic Shaman suggests something more meaningful about this pattern but I just think they should have used a word for the technique rather than the name of a specific religious sect. Thus we could have said that the medicine man of Native americans use altered states of conscious in a similar patter to the Sami religious leader or the Tungusic Shaman. In a similar way I can identify with the belief of the Lakota that the other inhabitants of the this earth are all my relations but I do not claim to be Lakota. I also do not know any Native Americans that would call themselves a Shaman even if they may use similar practices. In fact there are many Native Americans who get angry if you mention Shamans or spirit animals.

  10. #30
    Nihilistic Goddess Medusa's Avatar
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    Re: Pagan Pet Peeves

    Quote Originally Posted by Rae'ya View Post
    Spirit worker. Spiritual healer. Witch doctor. Medicine man. Cunning man. Hedgerider.

    Most of which were terms used by anthropologists before the term 'shaman' became common in academia.
    Yeah. So when you say those words I immediately think 'Shaman'.
    Satan is my spirit animal

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