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Thread: Hurting and punishing

  1. #1
    Cat Freak Gleb's Avatar
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    Hurting and punishing

    I wasn't sure in the beginning where to post it, in the safe zone or here. So I decided to do it here.
    So what do you think is the opinion of Kemetism of punishing those who hurt us? And to what degree? Only until the same level as we were hurt or is extra revenge is allowed? Personally I go with the first one but I try not to punish anyone since they'll screw the their life themselves at some point.

    As for the non-Kemetics here - what do you think? Your opinion is also appreciated!

    Glebz.

    - - - Updated - - -

    P.S.
    What if your Ka (life force) was hurt and the level of damage can't be measured?
    "Fair means that everybody gets what they need. And the only way to get that is to make it happen yourself."



    Since I adore cats, I might write something strange or unusual in my comment.Cats are awesome!!! ^_^

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    Newbie Magnus's Avatar
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    Re: Hurting and punishing

    Quote Originally Posted by Gleb View Post
    I wasn't sure in the beginning where to post it, in the safe zone or here. So I decided to do it here.
    So what do you think is the opinion of Kemetism of punishing those who hurt us? And to what degree? Only until the same level as we were hurt or is extra revenge is allowed? Personally I go with the first one but I try not to punish anyone since they'll screw the their life themselves at some point.

    As for the non-Kemetics here - what do you think? Your opinion is also appreciated!

    Glebz.

    - - - Updated - - -

    P.S.
    What if your Ka (life force) was hurt and the level of damage can't be measured?
    Non-Kemetic here but I'll give my two cents since Sumerian and Kemetic share a lot of the same information.

    I personally don't believe that whole "what you do will happen to you 7 fold" stuff, but I do to some degree believe that people who hurt you deserve the same back and maybe just a little bit more. I for one have made some poor choices in the past and hurt someone and over time I received a worse pain and it only made me learn from that and change my ways. So it is in a way benefiting both of you if you do cause a little bit more pain than they caused you.

    Also, if they are attacking you spiritually, then you should attack them much worse in the same way. Your energy is not to be taken lightly, treat your energy as if it were your heartbeat. That's just my viewpoint and doesn't need to apply to anyone else, whatever makes you feel like damage has been justified, but the last part please take seriously lol. I hope this helped, i'd like to hear your views on it as I am really interested in Kemeticism.

  3. #3
    Cat Freak Gleb's Avatar
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    Re: Hurting and punishing

    Thank you. This makes a lot of sense, I must say. I don't like hurting people and think that by hurting others, they dig a hole for themselves.
    "Fair means that everybody gets what they need. And the only way to get that is to make it happen yourself."



    Since I adore cats, I might write something strange or unusual in my comment.Cats are awesome!!! ^_^

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    sea witch thalassa's Avatar
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    Re: Hurting and punishing

    I rarely consider it my role to ensure that someone "gets what they have coming to them". Ordinairly I don't what whatinternal or external circumstances (or what those circumstances felt like to them) that made them decide to do X...unless they directly harmed me (or indirectly through negligence, etc) or mine or someone in which I witnessed the event and that person (place, thing, etc) is unable to fend for themselves, its none of my business. On the rare occasion where is my business AND I don't CARE what the internal or external circumstances involved are (usually because I feel the action is so heinous that there is no excuse or reason that will justify it), then maybe there is a role for me to play in achiving justice. But I'd have to weigh the responsibilities and circumstances and repercussions of such. With the exception of asking for guidance in making that decision or assistance in ensuring that *whatever the determined action was* was carried out correctly with as little spill-over as possible, I personally would not involve deities in such actions.
    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

    “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
    ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

    "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
    ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

    "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

    Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible

  5. #5
    Silver Member monsno_leedra's Avatar
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    Re: Hurting and punishing

    Hm, if ones "Soul" is weighted to see if you are worthy according to the Book of the Dead then any revenge / vengeance you might cause another would still be a negative on your own soul. Though to be honest I really do not recall exactly how each aspect is weighted and judged.
    I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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    Cat Freak Gleb's Avatar
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    Re: Hurting and punishing

    Thal - you make a good point here. The responsibilities, circumstances and consequences play a great deal in the subject.
    Monsno - perhaps this should be looked at from the "Ma'at vs. Isfet" perspective. As long as the servers of Ma'at restrict Isfet and don't let it take hold, this should be ok, right? Otherwise if we let chaos influence us, everything will be lost. Of course if we do more than necessary, like it was written above by Magnus, it will not do any good.
    "Fair means that everybody gets what they need. And the only way to get that is to make it happen yourself."



    Since I adore cats, I might write something strange or unusual in my comment.Cats are awesome!!! ^_^

  7. #7
    sea witch thalassa's Avatar
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    Re: Hurting and punishing

    Gleb, isn't this the whole point of Book of the Dead? The spells within in guide one through the obstacles to get to the place of weighing the heart, so that they can be tested in the negative confessions, and even then.......there was a spell just in case you might fail that too.
    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

    “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
    ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

    "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
    ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

    "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

    Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible

  8. #8
    Cat Freak Gleb's Avatar
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    Re: Hurting and punishing

    I have not researched the book of the dead yet. It's a very large script of texts. It will take forever to research it. However, I'm not completely out of options... I'll be back in this thread in a while.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Theoretically, the book was designed to help out the deceased in the Duat on their way to the court of Ausar and later on - the Iaru - the paradise. The traveller must be there 72 days, in the Duat, while using the book.
    "Fair means that everybody gets what they need. And the only way to get that is to make it happen yourself."



    Since I adore cats, I might write something strange or unusual in my comment.Cats are awesome!!! ^_^

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    Cat Freak Gleb's Avatar
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    Re: Hurting and punishing

    Okay, me back. I had to consult with someone about the subject. This person said something very smart -
    Sometimes it is right to stop someone from abusing you, sometimes it might even be justifiable to go a step further and stop them from hurting others. You may not always know everything that is going on. There's a quote often attributed to Einstein (not sure if it's correctly attributed) that you can never know what sort of battles other people are fighting, and to a certain degree that is true. Many hateful, angry, and abusive people do not do it on purpose. Others do it because they think that's how they are supposed to act, or because they've never been treated any differently. Does that mean you should allow yourself to be harmed? Probably not. But it might also suggest that attacking back at a person who is attacking you for reasons other than malicious intent (because they are sick, because they don't know better, because they don't even know they hurt you, etc.) might not be what you want to do.
    So yeah.. Our actions - all have consequences. So after reading the person's words, I began to understand the whole subject better.
    "Fair means that everybody gets what they need. And the only way to get that is to make it happen yourself."



    Since I adore cats, I might write something strange or unusual in my comment.Cats are awesome!!! ^_^

  10. #10
    Jr. Member Banu's Avatar
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    Re: Hurting and punishing

    Quote Originally Posted by Gleb View Post
    I wasn't sure in the beginning where to post it, in the safe zone or here. So I decided to do it here.
    So what do you think is the opinion of Kemetism of punishing those who hurt us? And to what degree? Only until the same level as we were hurt or is extra revenge is allowed? Personally I go with the first one but I try not to punish anyone since they'll screw the their life themselves at some point.

    As for the non-Kemetics here - what do you think? Your opinion is also appreciated!

    Glebz.

    - - - Updated - - -

    P.S.
    What if your Ka (life force) was hurt and the level of damage can't be measured?
    I've received permission to respond to this, even though it is an old conversation. I think this is a question which comes up often in our lives, though, so even though the original disturbance which prompted this discussion may have been resolved there is likely worth in discussing the problem anyway.

    There are a couple of different ways to look at this. Kemetic religion is not a "religion of the book," with holy scripture to which one must adhere. Ma'at is highly situational, and interpretations must be nuanced. However, there is a class of literature commonly called the "Wisdom Literature," often transliterated as "Seboyet" or "Sebait," which is written by wise people who've been around the block a few times and have advice for the rest of us on how to live a ma'atian life. It's usually written in the form of an instruction from a father to his son, but can take other forms.

    The Maxims of PtahHotep are the most famous of the Sebait; there are a few relevant passages here. First there is a trifold description of how to handle any sort of argument, when the opponent is a man who is your superior, equal, or inferior. Basically it says that when a man is your superior it is wisest to let him have his say and not argue with him, because you're probably not going to change his mind. Be quietly noble in bearing and action, and the people who witness your altercation will have nothing to fault you for but will see the other arguer being unreasonable and ill-tempered and judge him for it instead. If the opponent is your equal, then let him vent himself and the result will be much the same as the former occasion. People will see his hot temper and your restraint and you will be judged to be more worthy of their respect. If the opponent is someone weaker than you, then do not use your strength against them. "Wretched is he who injures a poor man," it says. Instead, "Let him alone, he will confute himself... You will beat him through the magistrates's reproof." So basically be respectable in your position, and your superiors will have no reason to doubt your actions over the opponent's.

    But the situation you describe is an attack of some sort, so that may change the dynamic a bit. In the Instructions of Merikara, a more direct approach is recommended:

    Quote Originally Posted by Instructions of Merikara
    "Beware of punishing wrongfully,
    Do not kill, it does not serve you.
    Punish with beatings, with detention,
    Thus will the land be well-ordered;
    Except for the rebel whose plans are found out,
    For god knows the treason plotters,
    God smites the rebels in blood.
    ...
    A blow is repaid by its like,
    To every action there is a response.

    ~Lichtheim, Miriam (1975). Ancient Egyptian Literature Volume I: The Old and Middle Kingdoms (pp. 100, 105). Near Eastern Center, University of California, Los Angeles.
    This would seem to recommend the "an eye for an eye" approach, but definitely being careful not to give back more injury than was received. However, it should also be kept in mind that Merikara was a king, and therefore responsible for protecting the lawfulness and order of an entire people. Perhaps it is necessary for someone in that situation to respond more forcefully than your average human. This brings us to another quote, this time from a man name Kheti who is describing his virtues through an autobiography in his tomb:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kheti
    I have come from my town.
    I have descended from my nome.
    I have done what people love and divinities praise.
    I gave bread to the hungry, clothes to the naked.
    I listened to the appeal of the widow.
    I gave a home to the orphan.
    I turned my back on the lover of lies.
    And I did not judge the blameless by his (i.e., the liar’s) word.
    I answered evil with good.
    And I did not seek after wickedness,
    So that I might endure on earth
    And achieve worthiness.

    ~Karenga, Maulana (2003-12-01). Maat, The Moral Ideal in Ancient Egypt: A Study in Classical African Ethics (African Studies) (p. 58). Taylor and Francis. Kindle Edition.
    (emphasis mine)
    I've bolded the line, "I answered evil with good." Karenga does a brilliant job of discussing the implications of this line, but I'll do my best to summarize him. First it's important to note that this is not a case of simply "turning the other cheek," it is a deliberate response to evil by promoting good. It is also not a reward to the evil one, but rather an action which cancels out the evil and destroys isfet, replacing it with ma'at. I don't know the details of your situation, but if the attack in question is a physical attack or threat, I would answer it by reporting it to the authorities to assist them in their job to defend public order and safety. The functioning of these public safeguards in a way which maintains the health of the community is good, it is ma'at. If the attack in question is more of a psychic threat or energetic attack, then I would answer it by the creation of amulets to defend yourself and any others who are involved. There is another quote from the Instructions of Merikare which outlines the noble actions taken by the creator god, Re. And one of them is as follows:

    Quote Originally Posted by Instructions for Merikare
    It was in order to be weapons to ward off the blow of events that he made magic for them (mankind).

    ~Ritner, Robert (1993). The Mechanics of Ancient Egyptian Magical Practice (p. 20). The Oriental Institute of Chicago.
    It is good, and in line with the order of the universe, for humans to use heka (magic) as their god-given tool to defend themselves. There is also a warning, however, addressed to medical practitioners of magic but relevant to us all that:

    Quote Originally Posted by Papyrus Spiegelberg (Petubast)
    As for the one who performs his magical spells, they go into him

    ~Ritner, Robert (1993). The Mechanics of Ancient Egyptian Magical Practice (p. 20). The Oriental Institute of Chicago.
    So I would beware of casting overly malevolent spells. I'm not saying don't do it, and certainly I have performed an execration or two in my time, but consider the repercussions very seriously.

    Or perhaps there are other options, you would know better than I. The main point is simply to act in such a way as to destroy evil, and set something good in its place.

    As for an attack on your Ka, I personally believe that the Ka is reinforced and reinvigorated every day by the food we eat and the interactions we have with the divine world, so beyond using amulets to protect myself from attack, eating healthy foods, and being mindful of the gods I wouldn't worry too much about it. But again, you know your situation better than do I.
    Last edited by Banu; 03 Nov 2015 at 16:05.
    With kind regards,
    Banu

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