Do Animals Hate?

[Munin-Hugin]

Talking to a co-worker, the topic of animals came up and he asked me a very strange question: If someone were to put a gun in your hand, then pointed a gun at your loved ones, THEN placed a human and a cat in front of you and said "You must kill one or I kill your <insert loved one's name here>, what would you do? Funny thing is, this isn't the first time a similar question had been posed to me, and without hesitation, I said that I would shoot the human. He looked a little horrified for a moment, before asking me why.

Because the cat doesn't hate.

There are hundreds of examples of animals (specifically avians and mammals) displaying a whole gamut of complex emotions, from sadness and depression to love and compassion. But I've never seen any evidence of actual hate. A dog will lash out at a boy who has been tormenting it to make the torment stop, or a cat will get angry at you and pee all over your things, but those are simply responses to external stimuli. Once they make their displeasure known, or eliminate the threat, it is no longer an issue. On the other hand, there are daily stories in the news about how humans go out of their way to disrupt, destroy, and ruin another's life, simply because they hate the person.

So what do you think, do animals experience hate?

[Gleb]

Re: Do Animals Hate?

I don't think there is such a thing as hate with animals. Fear, hunger (stronger or weaker, depends on the animal), protectiveness over the family/pack, sadness - sure. I can't give an example to hate but I can tive an example to all the other feelings I listed. Maybe there is such an animal, I don't know. Based on the species I know, I say they don't.

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If I had to decide between, let's say Daughter of Tootless (a former member of PF, she's barely online) and let's say... A cat,ibis or another sacred animal in Kemetism (maybe a snake is an exception since it represents Apep) then I'd ask to kill me instead and not to touch her and the cat. Maybe it's a poor example but that's what I can think of.

[thalassa]

Re: Do Animals Hate?

well, yeah. 1) humans are animals. 2) other species show violence to outgroups of their own species over territory, matez, and resources...which imo, is where hate originates from. the common chimp will kill and even cannibalize chimps that are not members of its troupe if they come into its territory....even babies.

hate is just a fancy human word for an extreme preference for one's ingroup over the outgroup, to the point of discriminatory behavior against them and even violence. that isn't just a human concrpt....ang higly social species has the capacity to do such. there is an evolutionary reason for it even. now,one could argue there is also a cultural component to human hate and an emotional complexity that likely stems from that that is uniqe to humans, but prefering the ingroup over the outgroup is in now way an isolated human thing...and human hate arises from that instinct.

[Gleb]

Re: Do Animals Hate?

well, yeah. 1) humans are animals. 2) other species show violence to outgroups of their own species over territory, matez, and resources...which imo, is where hate originates from. the common chimp will kill and even cannibalize chimps that are not members of its troupe if they come into its territory....even babies.

hate is just a fancy human word for an extreme preference for one's ingroup over the outgroup, to the point of discriminatory behavior against them and even violence. that isn't just a human concrpt....ang higly social species has the capacity to do such. there is an evolutionary reason for it even. now,one could argue there is also a cultural component to human hate and an emotional complexity that likely stems from that that is uniqe to humans, but prefering the ingroup over the outgroup is in now way an isolated human thing...and human hate arises from that instinct.

Maybe it's because humans are more complex and difficult species?

[Munin-Hugin]

Re: Do Animals Hate?

Maybe it's because humans are more complex and difficult species?

It could also be more of a primate thing, rather than something that spans all animals.

[Medusa]

Re: Do Animals Hate?

Oh yes they do. Ever heard about crows?

[Maria de Luna]

Re: Do Animals Hate?

Yes, my cat hates... Well the cat we had to give up, she hated him, attacked him for no reason, but Cthulhu is an a-hole so it's to be expected.

[anubisa]

Re: Do Animals Hate?

I think animals can be taught to hate. For example, if you love and treat an animal with care, that animal will love you. However, if you abuse and show them nothing but hate, they can be taught hate. At least in my opinion. We're brought in this world with no feelings of hate, but we are taught to hate certain things.

[Ula]

Re: Do Animals Hate?

I have had dogs or knew dogs that hated people. No matter how many times they came by or how much time they spent the dog just growled at them and only them the whole time. I have been around arrestee horse that seemed to dislike certain people of not al of them.

[Munin-Hugin]

Re: Do Animals Hate?

The question is though, is it hatred, or something else? If a dog or horse is abused by humans its whole life, it will avoid/attack/be hostile toward any human that comes near it. Is that truly hate, or just a learned survival behavior?

Protecting your territory is not hate, nor is defending oneself or driving off potential predators. That's just basic life preservation. Perhaps I should explain what I mean by "hate" a little better. It has been shown that humans who dislike each other will simply take steps to avoid or otherwise diminish the chances of contact with another person. I dislike racists and bigots, so I try very hard to just not be around them as much as possible. On the other hand, others claim to HATE a person or a group, and thus go out of their way to attack, aggravate, harm, and disrupt the lives of those hated individuals.

So do these animals you've claimed have shown hate do this? Do they intentionally make it a point to seek out and destroy the targets of their animosity, or do they only do so when presenting with a situation where interaction is unavoidable?

I had a cat named Misfit that I can use as a great example. I loved this guy so much, and he and I had a special bond where I was the only one he would curl up with or would allow to rub his belly. A friend of mine would always try to give him belly rubs after seeing me do it, but EVERY time, Misfit would start clawing and biting like a mad-cat. He was convinced that the cat hated him, but it was just a matter of him not trusting others enough to allow himself to be exposed like that.

[SleepingCompass]

Re: Do Animals Hate?

I don't know about hate, at least for dogs...

Jealousy, oh yes! And anger. My sister's dog is a little prima donna and will pee in front of my bedroom door if she thinks I'm giving my dog special treatment. But she will still cuddle and play with me afterwards, so I don't think she hates me, she just gets angry and jealous. My dog has stomach issues so he gets special people food (chicken and sweet potatoes). I always give her a taste when I feed him, but she totally thinks she should get her own bowl!

I worked as a dog walker one summer when I was younger and there was several rescue dogs that could only be walked by women. If a man tried to walk them, some could be dangerous. But I don't think that was triggered by hate so much as by fear... but who knows. Maybe they did legitimately hate men, but it saddens me to think that was the case... But I guess, thinking about it, humans that are abused might grow to hate stuff that reminds them of their abusers... Maybe it is the same for dogs. But if they are capable of hating, I don't think it comes as easy to them as it does for humans.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Do Animals Hate?

There are hundreds of examples of animals (specifically avians and mammals) displaying a whole gamut of complex emotions, from sadness and depression to love and compassion. But I've never seen any evidence of actual hate. A dog will lash out at a boy who has been tormenting it to make the torment stop, or a cat will get angry at you and pee all over your things, but those are simply responses to external stimuli. Once they make their displeasure known, or eliminate the threat, it is no longer an issue. On the other hand, there are daily stories in the news about how humans go out of their way to disrupt, destroy, and ruin another's life, simply because they hate the person.

So what do you think, do animals experience hate?

This is a difficult question to answer simply, because 'hate' is quite a loaded word and has different interpretations depending on who you are talking to. It's also difficult to answer simply because humans tend to anthropomorphize animal behavior far too much, and my experience is that it's hard for a lot of people to wrap their heads around the subtle differences without having some background in animal or behaviour studies.

The short answer is 'yes', with a few 'but's...

Perhaps I should explain what I mean by "hate" a little better. It has been shown that humans who dislike each other will simply take steps to avoid or otherwise diminish the chances of contact with another person. I dislike racists and bigots, so I try very hard to just not be around them as much as possible. On the other hand, others claim to HATE a person or a group, and thus go out of their way to attack, aggravate, harm, and disrupt the lives of those hated individuals.

This is actually a really important distinction, because it illustrates the point where dislike or learned avoidance turns into what we tend to consider 'hate'. We bandy the word 'hate' around quite a lot when it comes to animals... "he hates men with beards", "the cats hate each other", "he hates having his feet touched" etc etc... my experience is that only some of those sorts of statements are true. A lot of what we talk about as animals hating is not hate. But some of what we talk about IS hate. The major difference between humans and other species is that this sort of active hate is far more prevalent in the human species, and that is exists as a cultural norm within some groups rather than in isolated individuals.

I'm gonna quote some of the examples people have already mentioned and try to illustrate the difference...

well, yeah. 1) humans are animals. 2) other species show violence to outgroups of their own species over territory, matez, and resources...which imo, is where hate originates from. the common chimp will kill and even cannibalize chimps that are not members of its troupe if they come into its territory....even babies.

hate is just a fancy human word for an extreme preference for one's ingroup over the outgroup, to the point of discriminatory behavior against them and even violence. that isn't just a human concrpt....ang higly social species has the capacity to do such. there is an evolutionary reason for it even. now,one could argue there is also a cultural component to human hate and an emotional complexity that likely stems from that that is uniqe to humans, but prefering the ingroup over the outgroup is in now way an isolated human thing...and human hate arises from that instinct.

This.

With one caveat... while I agree that the sort of active 'hate' that Munin-Hugin is talking about arises from learned aggression, antipredatory behaviours and other forms of discriminatory aggressive behaviours, I hesitate to class those behaviours as blanket evidence of 'hate' as a species norm. I think that 'hate' is the point where those normal behaviours become abnormally expressed in a certain way (there are other reasons a behaviour can become abnormally expressed which have nothing to do with hate). In humans (and a few others), 'hate' has become a species norm, but it's not necessarily normal in many other species.

Now the tricky thing for those of us who have a background in behaviour (whether from biological sciences or behavioural sciences) is making sure that we're all taking about the same thing. Thal can correct me if she doesn't agree, but generally, when we talk about 'hate', it's not necessarily with the same emotional charge that a layperson means when talking about 'hate'. So when we say that yes, non human animals display hate, that doesn't necessarily mean that everything an owner thinks is 'hate' is actually hate.

The things that I see misinterpreted as 'hate' most often is anxiety and fear. The second most often thing is naturally solitary animals forced to live in multi-pet households who don't have the personality to be able to adapt and co-exist peacefully.

Oh yes they do. Ever heard about crows?

Crows are actually a really, really good example of a non-human species who display a socially normalised form of 'hate'. They're also a good example of when the behaviours Thal mentioned above can be displayed normally or displayed as a show of 'hate'. Crows will display an antipredatory behaviour (where they'll gang up against known predators to run them off or kill them) but this isn't the same as 'hate'. They'll also show aggression towards individuals who have been threatening towards them in the past (a form of learned aggression for self preservation), which again is not the same as 'hate. But they do take normal antipredatory behaviour to the next level. They'll pinpoint individuals of a species and the entire social group will show aggressive behaviour towards that one individual, even if they haven't personally had encounters with them. When the entire social unit becomes discriminatory towards one individual irrespective of whether they've ever encountered that individual or not... that starts getting into the realms of what we can consider as displaying 'hate' type behaviours.

Yes, my cat hates... Well the cat we had to give up, she hated him, attacked him for no reason, but Cthulhu is an a-hole so it's to be expected.

This is a classic example of how humans have forced unnatural changes on our domesticated companion species. Cats are naturally solitary creatures. The only time they naturally exist in a group is when the number of cats vastly outnumbers the space available (colony situations). Ironically, the worst number of cats you can keep in one household is two or three. Six is where you start getting to 'colony' status, so the social dynamic will change (hence crazy cat ladies can have twenty cats who are all perfectly happy, yet a responsible family ends up with two cats who apparently hate each other).

I don't actually consider this to be true 'hate', though. This is humans anthropomorphising cats. To us it looks like they are attacking each other for no reason, but there is actually several very good reasons in cat-land. Most cats will be able to coexist and learn how to time share the resources of the house. This is what cats do outdoors... they have neutral DMZ zones where any cat is allowed to be without fear of attack (usually main thoroughfares and areas where a single resource is in abundance in a single area rather than spread throughout the area), and in urban areas they will learn to time share certain backyards depending on which cat is outside at which time of day (this is why you rarely see feral cats, because they 'own' the area at night while the domestic cats own it during the day). Some cats don't have the personality for coexistance and can't live peaceably in one house. And usually, it's actually the one that doesn't show aggression or anxiety who is being the unreasonable housemate. Is this 'hate'? Not really. This is actually normal territory and social behaviour. It's just that they're forced to live in a relatively small area together and can't come to an agreement about peaceable cohabitation (usually because we haven't set the house up to compensate).

I have had dogs or knew dogs that hated people. No matter how many times they came by or how much time they spent the dog just growled at them and only them the whole time. I have been around arrestee horse that seemed to dislike certain people of not al of them.

I don't know about hate, at least for dogs... I worked as a dog walker one summer when I was younger and there was several rescue dogs that could only be walked by women. If a man tried to walk them, some could be dangerous. But I don't think that was triggered by hate so much as by fear... but who knows. Maybe they did legitimately hate men, but it saddens me to think that was the case... But I guess, thinking about it, humans that are abused might grow to hate stuff that reminds them of their abusers... Maybe it is the same for dogs. But if they are capable of hating, I don't think it comes as easy to them as it does for humans.

These can swing either way. I know LOTS of dogs who dislike certain people or certain types of people. I also know LOTS of anxious dogs who I can build a rapport with, but who will show aggression towards one of our receptionists and one of our vets (those two people specifically) because of their body language and approach. What it comes down to is one of several things...

- Anxiety and our ability vs inability to correctly approach an anxious dog. Certain voice tones and body language will set off 'fear aggression' in anxious or fearful dogs, regardless of who displays them. This is actually why 'dog people' who are always going on about how dogs love them will often get bitten by fearful dogs... because they can't read body language and don't understand how to change their own body language to reduce anxiety. It's also why an anxious dog will often hang around near the one person who doesn't really like dogs rather than coming to the people who are trying to pat it. Dogs will show a preference for some strangers over others not because they love or hate someone, but because of whether or not they feel threatened. Gender often comes into this because men are usually more overt and front-on and have a lower tone of voice, but dogs who 'hate men' will usually also be fearful of very confident, outgoing women. This isn't hate.

(Just so everyone knows, the correct way to approach an anxious or fearful dog is to stand sideways, tilt your head so that you can see them out of the corner of your eye, IGNORE THEM when they approach you to sniff you, just stand there for a few minutes and then if you have food hold it out without looking directly at it or the dog, talk in a quiet and calm voice and move slowly and smoothly. Do not approach them front on, don't hold your hand out to them, don't talk to them in cutesy voices, don't do any of the coaxing behaviours that we are naturally inclined to do... these will only make them growl at you to tell you to go away because you're weird and they think you're dangerous.)

- Anxiety and their inability to read our body language. Certain dogs will be fearful of people with glasses, men with beards, people with hats etc etc. They may also be fearful of other breeds of dogs... I know a lot of dogs who 'hate black dogs' or 'hate pugs' or whatever. It's not because they're prejudiced against men with beards... it's because the beard obscures the facial expressions and changes the body language of the person. It's because pugs and other brachycephalic breeds have squashed faces and bulging eyes that almost always mimic the facial expression of an overtly aggressive dog. It's because dogs who are all black don't have 'eyebrows' and it's difficult to recognise their facial expression because of the lack of shadows and highlights. It's because the dog can't read the person and so doesn't know how to respond to them... and if that dog is anxious (which, by the way, is almost always genetic rather than related to abuse early in life) they will often respond with 'fear aggression' or conflicted aggression in order to warn the unreadable person away and head off any potential conflict. (It's also often the culprit with dogs who 'hate kids', because kids give mixed signals and do unexpected things) This is also not hate.

- Learned aggression, directed at someone or a group of someone's who have threatened them in the past. This can be as simple as the dog who barks and snarls at the postman (postman aggression is a whole category of behaviour problem with it's own complex little set of triggers and underlying issues) or the dog who always tries to bite your aunt Jill... or it can be the dog who attacks all children on sight, or the dog who is fearful towards workmen in hi-vis shirts (but is happy to approach the exact same man if he's wearing plain clothes). Learned aggression starts as either a coping strategy, a redirected anxious behaviour, fear aggression, or a tactic of self preservation. But it can tip over into what Munin-Hugin talks about as 'hate' if it's prolonged and over-the-top. The dog who growls at aunt Jill every time she comes to visit does not 'hate' aunt Jill, she just feels threatened by her. But the dog who will launch across the room at aunt Jill the minute she comes in the front door but is a perfect angel with everyone else... if anxiety was ruled out that could potentially be considered 'hate'.

I had a cat named Misfit that I can use as a great example. I loved this guy so much, and he and I had a special bond where I was the only one he would curl up with or would allow to rub his belly. A friend of mine would always try to give him belly rubs after seeing me do it, but EVERY time, Misfit would start clawing and biting like a mad-cat. He was convinced that the cat hated him, but it was just a matter of him not trusting others enough to allow himself to be exposed like that.

This is pretty much spot on. It's not hatred, it's a matter of social bonding, personal boundaries and trust. Cats form strong social bonds with individuals of other species (and on rare occasions with other cats) and will allow social behaviours from that individual but not others. Dogs will also do this, but as a species they are naturally more inclined to have a larger social unit rather than individual social bonds.

The question is though, is it hatred, or something else? If a dog or horse is abused by humans its whole life, it will avoid/attack/be hostile toward any human that comes near it. Is that truly hate, or just a learned survival behavior?

It starts as a 'survival behaviour', but it can move beyond that. An underlying anxiety disorder is often the culprit for this sort of antisocial behaviour, because the majority of non anxious dogs can actually be rehabilitated following abuse and learn to become quite social. But I do think that something like this can become actual 'hate'. When it moves out of 'survival' or feeling threatened and becomes 'irrational' then the edges are blurred.

So do these animals you've claimed have shown hate do this? Do they intentionally make it a point to seek out and destroy the targets of their animosity, or do they only do so when presenting with a situation where interaction is unavoidable?

There actually are documented cases of targeted killings and revenge killings in certain species. Elephants and lions are commonly represented in this category of 'hate' behaviour. So yes, sometimes some individual animals will show 'hate' but intentionally seeking out at being aggressive towards a target.

[Bartmanhomer]

Re: Do Animals Hate?

I don't think animals don't understand the concept of hate. Animals are neutral. They can be good nor bad.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Do Animals Hate?

I do not think animals hate in the human context and usage of the word. I do think though that they understand revenge in its connection to the notion of hate and retribution. Even to the extent of delaying or planning how to instigate revenge upon people, other animals or same species then getting even or punishing.

Personally I think the biggest thing that goes against the idea of hate though is, to me anyway, the presumption that animals can be cataloged into the categories of good and bad. While to human perception an action might be perceived as good or bad to the animal its just survival and the struggle to survive.

[Bartmanhomer]

Re: Do Animals Hate?

I do not think animals hate in the human context and usage of the word. I do think though that they understand revenge in its connection to the notion of hate and retribution. Even to the extent of delaying or planning how to instigate revenge upon people, other animals or same species then getting even or punishing.

Personally I think the biggest thing that goes against the idea of hate though is, to me anyway, the presumption that animals can be cataloged into the categories of good and bad. While to human perception an action might be perceived as good or bad to the animal its just survival and the struggle to survive.

That what I said in some parts.