Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Pagan cultural appropriation

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #16
    Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

    Most religions have at least one human who was deified and became a god. Most religions also have at least one deity who is jealous of interactions with other deities.
    Yahweh told the Hebrews that he was a jealous god who would not tolerate other gods made more important than himself (thou shalt not have any gods before me) even though he was a lesser god than El who was the god of creation. The Jews solved that problem by combining the two. Yahweh was one of the many faces of El - part of Elohim. Still a single deity but different aspects of the primal deity. Yahweh was the war, mountain, and thunder god aspect of El. It was very useful to have a war god fighting with you when you were the invading force in an area that was new to you.

    Jesus in a grand example of a deified human just as Sargon or others. The Catholic church, in deciding whether Jesus was god or not used circular logic to make the decision. In order to forgive all sin Jesus had to be god. Since he died on the cross to forgive our sins he must be god. Jesus is god because without the forgiveness of sins there is no church. Jesus is therefore god. There are some problems with the single god aspect in Christianity because if Jesus is god why would he say about his return that "only the father knows, not the son nor the spirit, but only the father". If they were the same deity wouldn't they all know everything?

    Everything religious has been and will always be appropriated by other faiths or practitioners who have to connection to a specific religion. People traveling in the ancient past celebrated with the people where they were, hence the saying, "when in Rome do as the Romans do." My first tradition was distantly connected to the family traditions of Italy. It is said that a group of families (all Streghan) left Italy and traveled great distances taking bits of different faiths and cultures as they traveled. At around 600-500 BCE they were back in Greece because they also leaned from Pythagoras and his teachings. There were bits of Roman, Greek, Egyptian, and middle eastern aspects to the faith. There was also the belief that one should live a magikal path in every day of their life. This was the Order of the Phoenix. The magikal aspect of this path in probably why the name was used in the Harry Potter stories. It is also possible that the author never heard of the Order and used it because of the sound of it. It has caused some criticism of my claim to have belonged to the Order before it was even published in the books - "how dare I use a name to claim my history before it even existed!" I just have to laugh because the Order that I belonged to was a true religion with a mandated philosophy that in no way equaled the storybook "order".
    The Dragon sees infinity and those it touches are forced to feel the reality of it.
    I am his student and his partner. He is my guide and an ominous friend.

    Comment


      #17
      Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

      If I see one more thread within my domain derailed with irrelevant discussion about Christianity or the Bible, I will switch on the plasma canons MO, Juni and Thal gave me and I will start vaporising posts with extreme prejudice.

      If you really want to talk about Christianity, go and play in Abrahamic Faiths. I don't want to see it in here unless it explicity relates to an OP.

      Comment


        #18
        Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

        My own particular interest is in the Anglo-Saxons. Often they are confused and conflated with (a) Celts (b) Icelandic and Norse Culture and (c) just about anything Tacitus wrote in Germania. This, in my opinion, is a form of cultural appropriation.
        That said, I don't feel anything really negative about this, other than a rather mild irritation with the way 13th century Iceland is presented as exactly the same as seventh century England, with scarce a nod to the differences in time and place.

        Basically I feel that if we are going to appropriate cultural traditions, it pays to do so from a point of knowledge rather than laziness. Good information is out there and we shouldn't stop until we find it!
        www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


        Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

        Comment


          #19
          Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

          Is Tinker Bell real?
          Hey, some people believe that ephemeral concepts gain validation as metaphysical constructs (spirits) through widespread portrayal!

          Responding to the original question, I'm fairly certain that I'm okay with most appropriation, so long as it isn't done mockingly, and doesn't detract from the original formatting. That might be influenced by my status as Eclectic, and my belief that if someone does a ritual without expecting anything from it they make said ritual more powerful for a short time, but still.

          Comment


            #20
            Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

            I happen to be enjoying the debate on the reality of gods vs the reality of our experience of gods. But it's derailing this thread, so you may continue it here instead.

            Comment


              #21
              Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

              Sorryyyy for being a part of that. Thanks Rae'ya for making that separate thread.

              Any belief without appropriation is pretty much impossible. I guess as I do not hold to a particular faith I do not the issue as precious, but I would ask those who find the idea offensive, to consider how many of their beliefs are wholly original to their faith or sect. If your ancestors were influenced in a single way, then your belief system doesn't deserve "protection" anymore than any other, particularly as yours did the same. As my beliefs are very fragmentary, I will definitely be appropriating and I intend to be respectful as I do it. I've long wanted to be a purist, but it's madness, really, and I'm being dishonest with myself.
              I'm not one to ever pray for mercy
              Or to wish on pennies in the fountain or the shrine
              But that day you know I left my money
              And I thought of you only
              All that copper glowing fine

              Comment


                #22
                Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

                A thought that has just come to me:

                what about appropriating not from pagan religions, but from major religions that have otherwise oppressed or attempted to flush out paganism? Is that OK or is that like changing your name by deed poll to the name of a person who broke in and ransacked your house?
                I'm not one to ever pray for mercy
                Or to wish on pennies in the fountain or the shrine
                But that day you know I left my money
                And I thought of you only
                All that copper glowing fine

                Comment


                  #23
                  Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

                  Originally posted by Briton View Post
                  A thought that has just come to me:

                  what about appropriating not from pagan religions, but from major religions that have otherwise oppressed or attempted to flush out paganism? Is that OK or is that like changing your name by deed poll to the name of a person who broke in and ransacked your house?
                  My answer to this (and this entire thread) is this:

                  Let me introduce you all to ye olde human traditition of syncretism. Its a bit like having a baby--you take two parent religions and make a baby, which grows up to be its own thing, with elements of both its predecessors.

                  In your particular example, this would be the traditions of Voodoo, Hoodoo, Cadomble, Santeria, and others.
                  Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                  sigpic

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

                    Originally posted by Briton View Post
                    A thought that has just come to me:

                    what about appropriating not from pagan religions, but from major religions that have otherwise oppressed or attempted to flush out paganism? Is that OK or is that like changing your name by deed poll to the name of a person who broke in and ransacked your house?
                    Appropriation of one religion or another is inevitable. We ALL do it. Every. Single. One. Of. Us.

                    The trick is to do it respectfully. Borrow whatever you like, but be up front about what you've borrowed and give credit where it's due. And don't try to pass off your borrowed and hybridised practices as the original tradition.

                    I don't personally differentiate between borrowing from traditionally anti-pagan religions vs pagan ones. It's all the same thing, irrespective of where the inspiration is drawn from. As long as it's done respectfully and isn't harming anyone, then I have no problem with it.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

                      So...and I'm not linking any of this friviolous debate here, if you want to read, you'll have to work for it...apparently its now "appropriation" for Pagans to (how dare they) "appropriate" deities (by worshipping them incorrectly or using their symbolism in other ways) from "true" Polytheists.
                      Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                      sigpic

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

                        Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                        So...and I'm not linking any of this friviolous debate here, if you want to read, you'll have to work for it...apparently its now "appropriation" for Pagans to (how dare they) "appropriate" deities (by worshipping them incorrectly or using their symbolism in other ways) from "true" Polytheists.
                        People have far too much energy. I have obviously been entirely too light-handed in snacking on souls.
                        life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                        Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                        "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                        John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                        "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                        Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


                        Comment


                          #27
                          Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

                          Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                          So...and I'm not linking any of this friviolous debate here, if you want to read, you'll have to work for it...apparently its now "appropriation" for Pagans to (how dare they) "appropriate" deities (by worshipping them incorrectly or using their symbolism in other ways) from "true" Polytheists.
                          We are all so bad, so very, very bad.

                          I do so enjoy being bad when nobody is harmed in any way whatsoever, except to get their nose out o' joint.
                          Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

                            I think there is a difference between identifying with beliefs of a different religion and incorporating them into your own and the concept of appropriation where you take a god/goddess or ritual/way of practice and see yourself as a part of it and start teaching others how to practice it. In the first way you are identifying things that already have a meaning to your beliefs in a different way. This is a form of enrichment. The other extreme is to adopt practices that are attached to a culture and self proclaim and represent yourself as an expert of that religion. This is what created hostility in the Native American cultures as people who learned and maybe genuinely identified with aspects of Native American culture then Call themselves a medicine man/woman with proclaim they practice that form of belief.

                            As for the mixing and matching of gods and goddesses I find this hard to understand. I have seen some collect gods and goddesses as if it were a pokemon card collection pick and choosing what they like. A religion and belief seems more complex than just a collection of gods and goddesses. Each cultural religion has more that just gods and goddesses representing it. The myths and folklore have a connection that extends out beyond individual gods and goddesses which includes a code of ethics, moral teachings and complex beliefs that interconnect the religion of a particular culture in an interwoven pattern.
                            So I can understand adopting ideas or practices and integrating them into ones beliefs and there is historic evidence for this in the ancient pagan world. I find it more difficult to adopt entire belief systems of a different culture or take fragments of many cultures and place them together but of course this is my view from my limited perspective.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

                              I hate this "cultural appropriation" BS. I feel like people get too offended too easily these days. There's no possible way to go throughout life without "appropriating" something. If I really really wanted to nit pick appropriation about anything, trust me I could. I would probably go on an entire rant about how modern culture is influenced by Ancient Rome and then use that to say our culture is based off of the "cultural appropriation" of Ancient Rome.
                              A Happy Little Wiccan:^^:

                              Army of Darkness: Guardians of the Chat

                              Because who needs a life when you have a chatroom.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

                                Originally posted by sionnach View Post
                                As for the mixing and matching of gods and goddesses I find this hard to understand. I have seen some collect gods and goddesses as if it were a pokemon card collection pick and choosing what they like. A religion and belief seems more complex than just a collection of gods and goddesses. Each cultural religion has more that just gods and goddesses representing it. The myths and folklore have a connection that extends out beyond individual gods and goddesses which includes a code of ethics, moral teachings and complex beliefs that interconnect the religion of a particular culture in an interwoven pattern.
                                So I can understand adopting ideas or practices and integrating them into ones beliefs and there is historic evidence for this in the ancient pagan world. I find it more difficult to adopt entire belief systems of a different culture or take fragments of many cultures and place them together but of course this is my view from my limited perspective.
                                To offer another perspective; many, many people out there live in multiracial households and multi-faith families. Mixing different cultures and religions is totally normal to us, we've lived like this since birth.
                                The main reason I've never been much of a fan of the appropriation argument in the first place is that it seems almost pro-segregation, and seems to at best ignore or at worst oppose multicultural families and individuals. I've actually had some people tell me that my outright existence is cultural appropriation because I'm biracial.
                                But yes, on the whole, I think that mixing different Pagan belief systems and gods is no worse than what multiracial families to every day. And in my case we were Christian-Hindus and that was never an issue; most other combinations seem pretty simple when you have that as your background. xD

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X