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Thread: Approaching Ancient Spirit

  1. #1
    Member Niall_Leppu's Avatar
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    Question Approaching Ancient Spirit

    Hi everyone,

    There's a tree in my neighborhood that has certain spiritual importance to the locals. People respect and fear this tree. Locals claim that it grows on an intersection of a leyline and an underground river. A lot of older generations would hang the placenta of their grandchildren on this tree, so they may be protected and watched over by the ancient spirit.
    Thing is, it also granted wishes of those who want to inflict harm, misfortune and even death to others.

    I plan to approach this tree and perhaps get acquintanced with it. I also want to "talk it out" of harming and killing people.

    It may sound silly, I know. But there has been enough evidence of curses directed to people through this tree.

    I've prepared a sacrificial animal for a midnight ritual, along with standard ritual items and focii.

    What's your take in this case? How would you approach this tree? Have you done something similar?

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    Re: Approaching Ancient Spirit

    You are going to offer a blood sacrifice to a spirit or energy and then ask it not to harm???

    The tree is a representation of energies that flow under and around it. Energy has no moral code it can be used freely by anyone for any purpose. Would you try to talk a river out of flowing because people used it to flood an enemies farm? Energy exists in the world. It is a tool that can be used by all sentient beings. The energy has done nothing wrong. The people are the ones you should be aiming at.
    A blood sacrifice to bring peace and love? Ponder the action you intend to take and then decide how that action represents your cause.

    I might be a bit too authoritarian there so I have to say that I don't understand why a blood sacrifice would be a good way to bring peace and love. Pythagorean teachings tell us that it is an affront to the creator to take a life, kill it and offer the end of that life to the one who created it. It disrespects the life by ending it.

  3. #3
    Silver Member monsno_leedra's Avatar
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    Re: Approaching Ancient Spirit

    Have to admit I am a bit confused at what your seeking here. In part because I am not sure if you believe your dealing with an actual entity / being or if your dealing with a site that has become sacred due to what is possibly an energy vortex.

    If it is an entity / being then it seems, to me anyway, your first error is in placing human emotions and motivations upon it. You seem to suggest it performs blessings or something similar then indicate it also performs curses. Yet realistically a blessing or curse is always, well my opinion anyway, based upon how a person see's the action in relationship to themselves and some desired outcome. The entity / being itself typically could care less and makes no such distinction. Well I'd say under normal conditions there are some entities / beings that humanity tends to place under demonic headings that seem to have some human motivations and concept of rewards for doing things.

    I presume if it is an energy vortex, such as those supposedly researched that have formed at junction sites, then it's raw energy. Neither good nor bad simply energy that could be harnessed to perform some task by a skilled person. I say person for not everyone who might be able to utilize such energy would have to be an occult / pagan practitioner. Realistically a person of deep belief, regardless of which divinity they believe in, could connect to and utilize such a place. In such a case in basic terms your dealing with a light switch and the person, group, etc manages to turn it on or off to perform some desire they have. Of course there is the possibility that it is a situation where actually one might say two vortexes exist at once. During certain parts of the day the energy could be "Positive" and rising upwards. Sort of like how Yellow Stone erupts through out the day at set times. Inversely there could be periods where it could be seen as "Negative" in that the flow of energy actually returns to the earth and has a different feel or charge to it. Almost a sucking sensation as it seems to pull down and crush or drown what ever is within it. I've felt something similar at cave openings when the air rushes out and its sort of light and charged then it reverses and it becomes sort of depressing and sucks your very energy away from you.

    In such a case it becomes more an issue of knowing when and perhaps where to place things or try to use the energy. But the energy in and of itself has no human emotional attachments to it. It simply is.

    AN alternate possibility is that of an egregore perhaps a servitor / Tulpa has been created on the spot due to age and belief that something is alive there. The more people who believe the stronger it is. The deeper the belief the depths to which the energy goes that has sustained it or actually started the construction process. If its gone on long enough then potentially even passing into the condition of a self sustaining construct. Especially if it is connected in some manner to the junction point your suggesting with the "Ley Line" and "Water channel". Almost like creating a hydro-turbine on the spot and attaching the construct to it like some power station that distributes the power out over some energy network. Perhaps actually having three lines unit at one spot. Figure the typical Ley line is magnetic / electrical and derived from earth energy, the water is physical and causes a change and perhaps there is even a blue line representing a water ley line. Don't hear about them that often though some believe they are part of the elemental grids that are formed about and through out the earth. I happen to be one who does and have seen them floating over the landscape only to discover that a river did exist subsurface and the line followed the river.

    So potentially some entity / being, an energy vortex at a juncture point or some form of construct residing at, around or possibly within the tree itself. The presumption of offerings resulting in "It" returning some sort of action due to those offerings. Yet more likely, to me anyway, that the return more derived from the expectations of those who've made them and the belief of other's who are / were spoken to about them. Sort of the old theory that curses work best when the target is aware they are cursed and give it the extra energy and belief that they are cursed.

    To me the idea of talking to it and trying to get it to stop granting the curse requests as it were is sort of doomed to failure to begin with. Those who might desire a curse be performed are going to provide as many gifts, offerings and / or energy to the thing as those who simply want protection or blessings. Heck realistically those who want a curse might even go further in offerings to get their desire. SO the blessing brings the thing lets say 10 cents in return yet the curses bring in 75 cents, which is going to be more supportive? The person that brings in 10 cents or the person who brings in 75 cents.

    If an egregore then your not going to really have an effect upon it for it's been formed over many years to provide both the positive and negative aspects demanded of it and charged to perform by it. A low level construct, servitor, egregore , tulpa can only do limited actions and can not be reasoned with. A higher or better constructed one has more options but still is fairly restricted in what it can or can not do. If it has reached the capacity to be free roam or worse yet free willed then it will potentially have the ability to decide what is best for it, not you. As such it might be possessed of human concepts such as greed, anger, punishment, ego, etc and see itself as alive and needing of such offerings.

    If by chance it simply happens to be some land spirit then its even harder to say. In part because it maybe of such breath and age that it is never fully awake or aware of what is being asked of it. Sort of like speaking to a sleeping partner knowing they are going to answer but may not even be aware they were asked or actually did something. Yet the energy, focus, concentration and all needed will still be applied to what was asked of them in their near sleep like state. If it has anything resembling ego then your back to which returns better to nourish the ego and self.

    Off the top of my head and going by your suggestion of both a sacrificial offering and liminal usage of mid-night it seems to me you've already decided it's a negative being. You mention no moon which, to me anyway, again suggest a pre-notion that your dealing with an evil or dark entity. Lets face it to most people if your doing things in the night it's not supposed to be seen and usually suggests "Bad" intent or desired outcome. Sort of like visiting the person who is beneath you so you show up at their backdoor when its likely no one will be around to see you or know you where there. An action that shows concern for your image not the image and position of the person you are visiting. Lots of potential negativity in the outward appearance of what your asking and suggesting regarding what you'll be doing.

    Of course just some observations on my part so use or disregard as you see fit.
    I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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    Bronze Member magusphredde's Avatar
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    Re: Approaching Ancient Spirit

    What ^ said ...
    I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them ... John Bernard Books


    Indian Chief 'Two Eagles' was asked by a white government official; "You have observed the white man for 90 years. You've seen his wars and his technological advances. You've seen his progress, and the damage he's done."

    The Chief nodded in agreement.

    The official continued; "Considering all these events, in your opinion, where did the white man go wrong?"

    The Chief stared at the government official for over a minute and then calmly replied.. "When white man find land, Indians running it, no taxes, no debt, plenty buffalo, plenty beaver, clean water. Women did all the work, Medicine Man free. Indian man spend all day hunting and fishing; all night having sex."

    Then the chief leaned back and smiled; "Only white man dumb enough to think he could improve system like that."




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    Re: Approaching Ancient Spirit

    Well thought out and very well presented Monsno-leedra.

  6. #6
    Opinionated Rae'ya's Avatar
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    Re: Approaching Ancient Spirit

    What Monsno said. Word for word.

    And just to reiterate... trees and landspirits don't have a human moral compass. I highly doubt this is the tree or landspirit 'helping' people and lean towards this being an energy sink or egregore... but hypothetically, if it were a tree or landspirit, then you can't presume to tell it what it can and can't do. It's not human. It doesn't think like a human. It doesn't act like a human. Most don't even particularly care about humans in general. We are ants to the landspirits, perhaps even less important to it than ants, because ants may serve an actual function in the local ecosystem. If it's allowing people to tap into it's energy then good for them... but you will have zero control over who it lends it's energy to and why. If this is a tree or landspirit, it's not performing the blessings or curses... it's lending out it's energy in exchange for payment.

    On the subject of using an animal sacrifice as your own offering... functionally, it's a valid payment method when dealing with a lot of spirits. Most plant, animal and land spirits prefer alternative payment methods though. And frankly, I think that killing something in order to convince something else to stop hurting people is hypocritical. I'm not actually against animal sacrifice, as long as it's done humanely (and I have a VERY strict definition of 'humane'), but I do think it's hypocritical to use that particular payment for this particular request.

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    Member Niall_Leppu's Avatar
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    Re: Approaching Ancient Spirit

    Thank you for the responses. They bring a lot more things into consideration prior to the ritual, as it is yet to be performed.

    All possibilities described above are quite likely to be the actual case; I personally thought the tree housed an entity, might be an egregore or a landwight, that has been empowered by an energy vortex, age and deep beliefs throughout generations by so many locals.
    On the side note, the local belief system and culture do not really have or define "creation" of entities. Rather, it simply is there as part of the world, summoned a long time ago or "placed" (not created) there by some spiritually powerful person.

    I should also add, that this being seems to be capable of human emotions. Like anger and punishement in form of severe misfortune when certain families forget their yearly offerings, as well as favoritism and love, in form of protection and good fortune, when individuals pay their respects to it.

    It may all be coincident, but the frequency and timing of such events are way too numerous and accurate to discredit. This why I initially thought that it couldn't simply be a power vortex.

    In regards of the planned ritual, I choose midnight because I believe that is when the supernatural is most active, without a deliberate disregard to the tree on my part. The sacrificial animal I prepare is meant to comform with the local culture, which demands blood when one is dealing with the ancestors, landwights or spirits.
    I guess my aim here is to get acquaintanced and gain its favour.

    Perhaps now I should dismiss my initial plan to ask it not to harm or grant curse requests. Instead, I will call upon it for protection and loan of energy should I need an extra spike in my power reserve.

    There is an ancient stone altar at the base of the tree, where people would put their offerings and drip the first drops of blood from an animal during sacrifice. I'll do this, but also have a few barrels of water to mix with blood and pour it around the tree.

    I bought a black rooster for the sacrifice, but I think I'll add a wild boar for the ritual. People who throw curses don't generally offer more than a young rooster when placing their request to the tree. So hopefully psychology will take over when they see the huge head of a wild boar with protection symbols attached to it on the tree.

    If I can't stop the tree granting curse requests, then maybe I can discourage those who request it.

    Would this be a better course to take?

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    Bronze Member Munin-Hugin's Avatar
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    Re: Approaching Ancient Spirit

    There's a few things that stand out about this to me after reading various replies and the such. There is also the possibility that whatever entity that may seem to be there is in fact the creation of those people around it, and therefore does experience human-like emotion. Basically, if you believe in something strongly enough, it becomes the truth. At least for you. The convergent energies combined with the will of the people may have created the being that now resides there.

    Now, why do you feel that it is up to you to dictate how it and others use it's energy? In a way it comes across as "this is how I feel and since you don't feel that way you're wrong and I'm going to stop you". What justification do you have to make this choice for everyone else?

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    Member Niall_Leppu's Avatar
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    Re: Approaching Ancient Spirit

    Quote Originally Posted by Munin-Hugin View Post
    Now, why do you feel that it is up to you to dictate how it and others use it's energy? In a way it comes across as "this is how I feel and since you don't feel that way you're wrong and I'm going to stop you". What justification do you have to make this choice for everyone else?
    I understand that such entity may not share moral codes as adhered by humans. However, as I described my assumption that it can feel human emotions to certain degree, I now plan to attempt in gaining its favour rather than giving it a command.

    I have no justification for my intent other than sympathy for curse victims and my own moral code which may not be universally accepted.

    I won't go into details over why people in a third world country like Indonesia are so inclined to curse others for small things like getting butthurt or staring contest, but utilizing such great power source to hurt others, while it can be used for good things, seems wrong to me.

    It would be like using a hammer solely to knock people out when you can use it to build a house instead. I'm sure that as a fellow Asatruar, you understand this analogy.

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    Bronze Member Munin-Hugin's Avatar
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    Re: Approaching Ancient Spirit

    Well, while I understand the analogy, there's a reason that I refer to myself as Northern Trad rather than Heathen or Asatruar now. I've found that there is so much more out there to be looked into than just limiting myself to the "good" and "pleasant" things. The Fenrir, Jormungandr, the Jotnar, Loki, and everything else that is thought of as Rokkatru. So the ideas of curses, hostile workings, and tapping into the malevolent are not things that I shy away from. The Northern Tradition is not flat, with just a single surface for the light to shine down upon. It has its dark sides as well, and is more like a spinning polyhedron where all its facets at one time or another are brought to the surface.

    I tend to look at it as if it is morally wrong to you, then just don't do it, but don't try to inflict your morals apon someone else who obviously feels differently.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Well, while I understand the analogy, there's a reason that I refer to myself as Northern Trad rather than Heathen or Asatruar now. I've found that there is so much more out there to be looked into than just limiting myself to the "good" and "pleasant" things. The Fenrir, Jormungandr, the Jotnar, Loki, and everything else that is thought of as Rokkatru. So the ideas of curses, hostile workings, and tapping into the malevolent are not things that I shy away from. The Northern Tradition is not flat, with just a single surface for the light to shine down upon. It has its dark sides as well, and is more like a spinning polyhedron where all its facets at one time or another are brought to the surface.

    I tend to look at it as if it is morally wrong to you, then just don't do it, but don't try to inflict your morals apon someone else who obviously feels differently.

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