GMO Foods: Are They Safe

[DanieMarie]

Re: GMO Foods: Are They Safe

Danie summed up most of my concerns about GMOs quite nicely.

The only thing I have to add is that I disagree with the idea that the companies that spend billions of dollars to make these shouldn't be allowed to turn some sort of profit for them for further research. I think the same sort of system we use for medications is a good start (you get x years to recoup costs and make a little extra and then open it up), though that system has issues too (mostly because of the profit margin required to appease the stock market).

I think that's one of the pitfalls of producing GMO seeds on an industrial level, though. Plants and seeds are very, very different from pills. It's pretty hard to keep GMO seeds from making their way elsewhere...Birds and animals eat them and, uh, excrete them in other places, they get scattered by wind, etc. It's also hard to keep them from cross breeding with other plants. There is more than one case of farmers getting slapped with lawsuits because part of their patches ended up with patented plants that they didn't pay for.

But on top of that, there's a big reason why farmers save their seeds. Buying seeds each year is a huge expense for them, and their margins are already TINY. Like, most are barely struggling to make it at all. I guess this is less of a problem for investor-owned farms than it is for smaller local farms, but it is an issue. It's even more of an issue in developing and emerging countries, where farmers struggle even more than their European and North American counterparts (at least a lot of farms over here are eligible for some sort of subsidy program or another) Most companies that patent their seeds don't let farmers save them for the next year.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: GMO Foods: Are They Safe

Patents on seeds/cuttings do not prevent anybody from saving and then planting seeds, or making cuttings. They prevent somebody from selling patented seeds/cuttings commercially - for profit.

I think. Unless the laws have changed...

If the seeds don't breed true, or if they are cross pollinated, that will prevent saved seeds from being replanted, though. Cross pollination is a huge problem for seed producers - bees will fly as much as five miles to get into a flower (but they prefer to go to the nearest source), so either one needs huge areas of monoculture, or one needs to hand fertilize, which is very labor intensive.

[thalassa]

Re: GMO Foods: Are They Safe

But on top of that, there's a big reason why farmers save their seeds. Buying seeds each year is a huge expense for them, and their margins are already TINY. Like, most are barely struggling to make it at all. I guess this is less of a problem for investor-owned farms than it is for smaller local farms, but it is an issue. It's even more of an issue in developing and emerging countries, where farmers struggle even more than their European and North American counterparts (at least a lot of farms over here are eligible for some sort of subsidy program or another) Most companies that patent their seeds don't let farmers save them for the next year.

I think this could be overcome too...

Something like when you get a "cottage license" to produce a design someone else made for your own sale (which, depending on the product and the place, isn't always legal requirement) or pay royalties for using someone else's song.

Like...I buy X upfront, then get to save my seeds without fear of lawsuit, with the agreement that I will pay X in "royalties" for the number of years before your product has until the "patent" on it runs out.

[thalassa]

Re: GMO Foods: Are They Safe

Patents on seeds/cuttings do not prevent anybody from saving and then planting seeds, or making cuttings. They prevent somebody from selling patented seeds/cuttings commercially - for profit.

Yeah, but farmers whose non-GMO crops have been cross-pollinated by wind/insect, and farmers who have had wind dispersal seeds in their own field, and then saved those seeds have been sued for infringement of the patent and then lost....because, lets face it, those seeds *do* do better.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: GMO Foods: Are They Safe

I stand corrected

[Briton]

Re: GMO Foods: Are They Safe

Yeah, but farmers whose non-GMO crops have been cross-pollinated by wind/insect, and farmers who have had wind dispersal seeds in their own field, and then saved those seeds have been sued for infringement of the patent and then lost....because, lets face it, those seeds *do* do better.

This. This is why private sector is not always a good idea. You cannot control nature in every way, definitely not forever. The Law needs to recognize that cross pollination happens and that nobody should be sued for such a situation. If Monsanto no likey, they can suck it up and make their plants infertile.

[anunitu]

Re: GMO Foods: Are They Safe

Yeah, but farmers whose non-GMO crops have been cross-pollinated by wind/insect, and farmers who have had wind dispersal seeds in their own field, and then saved those seeds have been sued for infringement of the patent and then lost....because, lets face it, those seeds *do* do better.

What I do wonder if the GMO stuff gets into a farmers crop,why can't the farmer sue for corruption of their crop by the GMO people(Pure,organic plants seem to go for a premium,so corrupted plants would seem a loss) Even if GMO plants are "Better" in some way(People determine the worth of a plant by their buying them over the other)

One thing,FOOD should NEVER be used as a way to lock things in as in the medical Gouging of medicine like what happened recently(700 percent is immoral and should be banned by law)

Loan sharking meds or food should be grounds for casting out of society....

- - - Updated - - -

There was a case where a person had a mutated system that was immune to a Disease,and a Medical company tried to patent it,even though it never compensated the person with the mutated system. Because you found it in the person,does not make it YOURS for making a profit.

[DanieMarie]

Re: GMO Foods: Are They Safe

I think this could be overcome too...

Something like when you get a "cottage license" to produce a design someone else made for your own sale (which, depending on the product and the place, isn't always legal requirement) or pay royalties for using someone else's song.

Like...I buy X upfront, then get to save my seeds without fear of lawsuit, with the agreement that I will pay X in "royalties" for the number of years before your product has until the "patent" on it runs out.

Gotcha. I don't really take issue with that, although that still doesn't really solve the accidental issue. I think the deal should be fair and affordable to farmers, though.

Most farmers who crossbreed to create new breeds never see a cent from their creations. At least it would tackle that issue.

- - - Updated - - -

What I do wonder if the GMO stuff gets into a farmers crop,why can't the farmer sue for corruption of their crop by the GMO people(Pure,organic plants seem to go for a premium,so corrupted plants would seem a loss) Even if GMO plants are "Better" in some way(People determine the worth of a plant by their buying them over the other)

I think that gets kind of complicated. Most small farmers don't have a whole lot of money to hire lawyers and take on big multinational corporations. And in some countries, lawsuits aren't the best ways to challenge your problems. In Germany, it's a fairly common way to get insurance money (the lawsuit part is more of a formality), so it could maybe work, but insurance tends to get complicated and is usually issued for very, very specific situations. In Canada, a lawsuit can take YEARS and a lot of problems are better off solved through regulation. In the UK, you have to prove without a doubt that the other party damaged you if you want to stand even a slim chance of winning a lawsuit.

One thing,FOOD should NEVER be used as a way to lock things in as in the medical Gouging of medicine like what happened recently(700 percent is immoral and should be banned by law)

Ehhh this is challenging in the US, but it's another issue in other countries. Drug prices are already capped in a lot of the developed world. At face value, I don't see why patented seeds couldn't be. That being said, the grounds for capping drug prices has a LOT to do with state funded health care. It could be challenging to defend caps in the agricultural industry.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: GMO Foods: Are They Safe

I stand corrected

Or maybe not:

Myth: Monsanto Sues Farmers When GMOs or GM Seed is Accidentally in Their Fields

- - - Updated - - -

Wow - this is really exciting. There is so much crap being floated about these court cases on the internet. I need to go read the actual NY Supreme Court decision to know who is a big, fat fibber...

[Munin-Hugin]

Re: GMO Foods: Are They Safe

As far as I go, I see food, I buy food, I eat it. Whether it's a bunch of modified grapes or bananas (seedless), free range chicken, pink slime burgers, or organically grown produce. In these days where we are screwing up ecosystems and poisoning the soils/oceans like it was our jobs, if there's a way to get food on our tables and in our bellies that's fine with me.

[DanieMarie]

Re: GMO Foods: Are They Safe

As far as I go, I see food, I buy food, I eat it. Whether it's a bunch of modified grapes or bananas (seedless), free range chicken, pink slime burgers, or organically grown produce. In these days where we are screwing up ecosystems and poisoning the soils/oceans like it was our jobs, if there's a way to get food on our tables and in our bellies that's fine with me.

The issue is that sometimes, that food plays a role in poisoning soils and ruining ecosystems. And sometimes, the GMO stuff is doing that too. There is definitely a lot of potential for environmental good, but people have to stay critical. That's one of the reasons the division on this issue drives me insane. One camp seems to be for it in absolutely all cases, and the other seems to be against it in absolutely all cases.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: GMO Foods: Are They Safe

...That's one of the reasons the division on this issue drives me insane. One camp seems to be for it in absolutely all cases, and the other seems to be against it in absolutely all cases.

Alas! this is the way humans roll. If we could take a middle ground approach on important issues, we'd be living in paradise.

[DragonsFriend]

Re: GMO Foods: Are They Safe

I would say that most, if not all, commercial farmers are using hybrid seeds. The hybrid seed products cannot be saved and planted the following year because they will produce a variety of plants which were cross-bred to make the hybrid. I live in a farming area - wheat mostly - and the farmers buy seed every year. The planting seed differs from the food seed in that it is treated with fungicides, rooting vitamins and fertilizers to give it an advantage when it is most prone to destruction. Hybrid seeds allow for shorter stalks and larger seed heads for more production of high quality food.

The cost of seeds is an expense that farmers have whether they use licensed seed or GMO seed. I use heirloom seeds in my gardening and some work well while others are not viable with the acreage that I garden. for example heirloom corn only produces one to three corn ears on each stalk. Most often it is one or two. The hybrid corns produce three times as much corn and shorter stalks with larger ears. I don't raise corn because at 65 I don't have the strength to use enough area to make it worth doing. With heirloom seeds you can use the seeds from your crops to plant next year.

[DanieMarie]

Re: GMO Foods: Are They Safe

As part of my food co-op, I have to work on one of the supplier farms for a few days per year. The farms are organic, and I've been learning a lot about organic farming. You'd be amazed at how efficient they can be.