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    Are your beliefs "reasonable"?

    A recent discussion with an atheist friend gave me the inspiration for this topic. To avoid making this really long-winded, I'll summarize the important part of the conversation...

    Him: Theism is not a reasonable position because there is no objective evidence to support it. There is no good reason to simply believe in any god or gods without proof that they actually exist.

    Me: People in the pagan community talk about this issue all the time when we question whether we're really communicating with deities or hearing voices in our heads or just talking to ourselves. Polytheists usually acknowledge that we have no objective evidence that these deities exist, but our personal subjective experiences indicate that they do (or at least might) exist. That is all the evidence we need to support our beliefs.

    Him: Anecdotal evidence is worthless in science and law, so why would you base your worldview on it? Those personal experiences you had probably have a psychological or physiological basis, and you just said you're aware that that might be the case, so why wouldn't you just accept the most reasonable conclusion instead of stretching to say "maybe it was a god"?

    Me: My subjective experiences have influenced many different aspects of my worldview, so why should my religion be exempt to that? I think the more important question is why objective evidence is superior to subjective evidence in this situation. The only people who require objective evidence to accept my beliefs as valid are people other than me - and I have no desire or obligation to try to convert anyone, so why should I ever be concerned about producing evidence to support my beliefs?

    Him: Well, why would you want to believe something that you don't know is true? It is completely stupid to believe that something is true without good evidence to support it, and anecdotal evidence is just not strong enough to support the claim that any god(s) exists.
    To be honest, I really didn't know how to respond to that other than by repeating what I already said.

    What do you think of his statement that beliefs based on personal experience or anecdotal evidence are "unreasonable"? How would you respond to someone who questioned why you believe what you believe when you don't (and can't) know with complete certainty whether you're really right or not?

    #2
    Re: Are your beliefs "reasonable"?

    People believe in a lot of things they know deep down aren't true. Even us atheists.

    The idea of the word 'reasonable' in not objective at all. It's subjective. Just like the idea of belief.

    Your friends sounds sorta douchee.
    Satan is my spirit animal

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      #3
      Re: Are your beliefs "reasonable"?

      Originally posted by Medusa View Post
      People believe in a lot of things they know deep down aren't true. Even us atheists.

      The idea of the word 'reasonable' in not objective at all. It's subjective. Just like the idea of belief.

      Your friends sounds sorta douchee.
      Yeah, I'm using the word "friend" here a bit loosely. We originally met through my old college's freethinker/atheist group (which was during the time period that I described myself as an atheist), and he pretty much started ignoring me after I "came out" as a pagan despite the fact that we had gotten along pretty well beforehand. I've stayed "friends" with him since then because we still have a lot of friends in common and he posts some really interesting things on Facebook. He's also somewhere on the autism spectrum so it's pretty normal for him to come off as rude or douchey; this was an online conversation so I have no way of knowing whether it was intentional or not this time. (Wouldn't surprise me either way.)

      Anyway, I think it's great to always question why you believe what you believe, but I don't think that religious beliefs should always be expected to meet the same standards of evidence that scientific theories require. (Unless, of course, you're looking at an issue where the two overlap, like young-earth creationism.)

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        #4
        Re: Are your beliefs "reasonable"?

        Ask him if he thinks there is life outside of Earth.

        Then we'll see whether he thinks believing in things without clear evidence is unreasonable.

        Many mocking atheists will profess that there must be life outside Earth. Really, this belief is actually less credible than the belief in any gods or spirits, because at least the assertion of life outside Earth should be falsifiable whereas using science, the study of the natural world, will never be able to conclude the existence of inherently transcendent beings.

        Yeah, "reason" is not the same objective fact. I have no reason to believe my wife is unfaithful. Do I have objective, empirical undeniable evidence? No. Do I need to? No. There is more to life than observable fact. Unfortunately there will always be some who swear their life by these things. I can only imagine that a) they hold quite a few contradictions or b) if they truly are living by only that which is observable, their lives must be quite boring.
        Last edited by Briton; 28 Oct 2015, 01:03.
        I'm not one to ever pray for mercy
        Or to wish on pennies in the fountain or the shrine
        But that day you know I left my money
        And I thought of you only
        All that copper glowing fine

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          #5
          Re: Are your beliefs "reasonable"?

          Originally posted by Briton View Post
          Ask him if he thinks there is life outside of Earth.

          Then we'll see whether he thinks believing in things without clear evidence is unreasonable.

          Many mocking atheists will profess that there must be life outside Earth. Really, this belief is actually less credible than the belief in any gods or spirits, because at least the assertion of life outside Earth should be falsifiable whereas using science, the study of the natural world, will never be able to conclude the existence of inherently transcendent beings.
          To equate thinking a thing may exist and believing the thing does exist is sloppy use of language.

          Also, your logic is flawed. True, the life off-world speculation is - theoretically - falsifiable, it is not so currently. Those who speculate about it rationally use observations of earth that we do know to calculate the likelihood that life exists elsewhere.

          However, those who claim the existence of local "transcendent beings" provide no actual evidence, even evidence in the form of a probability table.

          One is a calculated probability based on known data, the other is total fabrication.
          Last edited by B. de Corbin; 28 Oct 2015, 01:31.
          Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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            #6
            Re: Are your beliefs "reasonable"?

            Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
            To equate thinking a thing may exist and believing the thing does exist is sloppy use of language.
            I guess it's a good thing I didn't, then.
            I'm not one to ever pray for mercy
            Or to wish on pennies in the fountain or the shrine
            But that day you know I left my money
            And I thought of you only
            All that copper glowing fine

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Are your beliefs "reasonable"?

              Originally posted by Briton View Post
              I guess it's a good thing I didn't, then.
              From what you've written, it appears you did. Possibly I'm wrong, but going back and reviewing, it still seems as if you did.

              Can you clarify your meaning to this confused reader?
              Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Are your beliefs "reasonable"?

                Well, why would you want to believe something that you don't know is true?
                Because it makes me happy and enriches my life in a dimension that someone that doesn't believe (or suspend disbelief) can't ever understand.
                Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                sigpic

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                  #9
                  Re: Are your beliefs "reasonable"?

                  Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                  From what you've written, it appears you did. Possibly I'm wrong, but going back and reviewing, it still seems as if you did.

                  Can you clarify your meaning to this confused reader?
                  I'm not really sure how you're concluding that I'm equating these two things though. I'm as confused as you are.

                  If you could quote me where I said at one point "may think exist" and then, about the same people "believe does exist" at another point, I'd greatly appreciate it.
                  Last edited by Briton; 28 Oct 2015, 03:32.
                  I'm not one to ever pray for mercy
                  Or to wish on pennies in the fountain or the shrine
                  But that day you know I left my money
                  And I thought of you only
                  All that copper glowing fine

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Are your beliefs "reasonable"?

                    I think my beliefs are reasonable in that I create my reality and define it within how I view and understand my reality. As such my gods / goddesses exist because I desire they exist and I see proof of their existence in how I manifest my reality. Since my reality is dynamic and evolving so to are the ways I define and understand what transpires within it and upon it.
                    I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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                      #11
                      Re: Are your beliefs "reasonable"?

                      Then we'll see whether he thinks believing in things without clear evidence is unreasonable.

                      Many mocking atheists will profess that there must be life outside Earth. Really, this belief is actually less credible than the belief in any gods or spirits, because at least the assertion of life outside Earth should be falsifiable whereas using science, the study of the natural world, will never be able to conclude the existence of inherently transcendent beings.
                      In common language, the word "belief" can mean (amongst other things) A. the acceptance of a high probability based on observation (example: I believe that there will be a sunrise tomorrow)or B. the acceptance of a things as true despite the lack of evidence or evidence to the contrary (I believe that the earth is 6000 years old).

                      If you use "hypothesize" for A, and "have faith" for B, it would be much clearer.
                      Last edited by B. de Corbin; 28 Oct 2015, 03:42.
                      Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Are your beliefs "reasonable"?

                        Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                        Because it makes me happy and enriches my life in a dimension that someone that doesn't believe (or suspend disbelief) can't ever understand.
                        My friend continued the discussion with another friend of ours (honestly not sure what religion she follows, if any) after I went to bed last night, and she said almost exactly what you said. She specifically mentioned believing in an afterlife despite a lack of hard evidence because it helped her cope with the deaths of several friends and family, and it helped her overcome severe anxiety about her own mortality.

                        His response was really long and rambling so I'll try to summarize his point... "I understand why believing in an afterlife or god or whatever would make someone feel better, but being in denial about the ugly realities of life isn't healthy. It's delusional to choose to believe something based on how good it makes you feel instead of how true it is."

                        ...well, first of all, our mutual friend, who hunts deer and has probably dissected a hundred dead animals throughout her life as a biology major, is definitely not in denial about the physical reality of death. Second, I think it's a lot less healthy to feel miserable and negative and hopeless so if religion cures that, then it's probably a positive thing.

                        Third, after reading the writings of hundreds of pagan authors, bloggers, and forum-goers over the past 2 years, I can confidently say that we have a VERY different idea of what makes something "true" than my 'friend' here does. When I started journaling about my beliefs and practices several months ago, I started collecting insightful or inspirational quotes from different sources, one of them being this forum. Unfortunately I didn't write down the username of the person who wrote this, but here's what they said: "Whatever satisfies the soul is truth." I think that's how a lot of pagans, and religious people in general, feel about these issues. Evidence to support a belief is irrelevant if that belief provides comfort and hope.

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                          #13
                          Re: Are your beliefs "reasonable"?

                          My beliefs are always reasonable. My actions may not be, but my beliefs are. Allegedly.
                          www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                          Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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                            #14
                            Re: Are your beliefs "reasonable"?

                            Atheists rely heavily on science to support their position and, often, their points do ring true. No one can argue there is no empirical evidence to prove the existence of deity. However, the absence of evidence is not itself proof of nonexistence. There are still discoveries yet to be made.

                            Physicists have posited that multiple dimensions - long believed in spiritual circles - may indeed exist. Theories that various realities exist simultaneously have been tested with positive, if not conclusive, results. Even now, physicists have discovered and are pondering the implications of specific binary code in string theory equations.

                            I used to run an exercise in observation and reporting at one of the training facilities I worked at. I would take students and place them in separate corners of a parking lot, with instructions to observe and report on the departure of a specific individual. The reports would all agree that the person walked from the building to his car and departed, but the other details would always differ. There were individual biases which influenced how each student perceived the event, and environmental biases that affected what they saw. None of them were 100% right, but at the same time none were 100% wrong, either.

                            The point of the exercise was to show them the reality that no one has the whole picture. Such is the case in the theist-atheist debate.

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                              #15
                              Re: Are your beliefs "reasonable"?

                              Shrug, I'm an extra-dimensional soul-eating horror that uses Web forums as farms. What is reasonable again? :cthulhu:
                              life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                              Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                              "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                              John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                              "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                              Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


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