Alternatives to Capitalism

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

I know you are talking about re-education, but worker self-directed enterprise have been operating successfully. It would be interesting to see if it could succeed large scale.

It would take an overhaul of the education system at tertiary level as many educators and teachers are teaching how to succeed as an executive. In WSDE, everyone would need to be taught a degree of management skill.

Things like this can only work in a very limited way.

What do you do with people who will not learn?

What do you do with people's whose management skills are sub-par?

What do you do with people who have personal agendas?

What do you do when secret coalitions are formed (as when the Mafia took over the unions)?

These are not idle questions, or questions intended to shoot down a theory. They are real, practical problems that need to be addressed.

Any system that requires an idealized view of humans is pre-doomed to failure. Humans are just not like that...

Look around. I should not have to point out the obvious to accademics.

[DragonsFriend]

Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

People historically produce more when they own what they produce and the means with which to produce. That is pure capitalism. You can't even barter unless you own something to barter.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

*circular economy*

I just took a quick look, but a "circular economy" looks like it could create a more sustainable, more efficient capitalism..

[thalassa]

Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

People historically produce more when they own what they produce and the means with which to produce. That is pure capitalism. You can't even barter unless you own something to barter.

Pure capitalism is also fixed pricing, monopolies, starve on the street when you are too old or too sick to work, and beating small children that fall asleep during their 14 hour work day for which they are paid pennies.

Unfortunately, it seems my parent's generation forgot about the Gilded Age. The dose always makes the poison. Unfettered anything is bad.

[Azvanna]

Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

Things like this can only work in a very limited way.

What do you do with people who will not learn?

What do you do with people's whose management skills are sub-par?

What do you do with people who have personal agendas?

What do you do when secret coalitions are formed (as when the Mafia took over the unions)?

These are not idle questions, or questions intended to shoot down a theory. They are real, practical problems that need to be addressed.

Any system that requires an idealized view of humans is pre-doomed to failure. Humans are just not like that...

Look around. I should not have to point out the obvious to accademics.

Well, we have already failed in the most epic way. I'm not too sure what's wrong with trying to acknowledge and control for the worst of human nature as opposed to simply giving into it. I think the aim of WSDE is to micro-manage the social failures of capitalism - the major failures being the imbalance of shared profits and losses and the lack of social interest management of big corporations have in the well being of their workers and environment. This isn't their fault - it's just how capitalism works. The dollar is the bottom line.

The types of people you mentioned already exist, so I think you can do with them the same things we do now. In WSDE, I don't think there's an absence of management roles, it's just that the pay is likely to end up more evenly distributed.

I'm not totally sold on the idea as it is so far removed from my experiences to date. I couldn't imagine working for a WSDE hospital for instance. Maybe those public service facilities would have to be run by the state alone. Our state government has a hard enough time as it is keeping up with demands.

*circular economy*

This looks really good. It addresses our most critical issue - our environment. I like that it ties ecology to profits. I think this might be a good way to at least begin turning things around. We're on this crazy train that doesn't seem to be able to be slowed. Maybe circular economy can help to redirect.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

Well, we have already failed in the most epic way. I'm not too sure what's wrong with trying to acknowledge and control for the worst of human nature as opposed to simply giving into it. I think the aim of WSDE is to micro-manage the social failures of capitalism - the major failures being the imbalance of shared profits and losses and the lack of social interest management of big corporations have in the well being of their workers and environment. This isn't their fault - it's just how capitalism works. The dollar is the bottom line.

The types of people you mentioned already exist, so I think you can do with them the same things we do now. In WSDE, I don't think there's an absence of management roles, it's just that the pay is likely to end up more evenly distributed.

Well, while thinking, add this to your thoughts - the more companies that are run that way, the fewer places there will be for the dinks (old hippy term for those who don't fit in) to work.

When there is a management structure, those people can be effectively managed. When the employees themselves are the managers, it will be in their own best interest to force those people out.

Not really my problem, I suppose, since I'm not like that (I am good at faking fitting in) but still, it is my problem because those people will be out of work - bad for the world I live in.

[Azvanna]

Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

Well, while thinking, add this to your thoughts - the more companies that are run that way, the fewer places there will be for the dinks (old hippy term for those who don't fit in) to work.

When there is a management structure, those people can be effectively managed. When the employees themselves are the managers, it will be in their own best interest to force those people out.

Not really my problem, I suppose, since I'm not like that (I am good at faking fitting in) but still, it is my problem because those people will be out of work - bad for the world I live in.

Again, can't we do with them what we already do? We have unfair dismissal laws now.

Not to undermine the problem, but this kind of reminds me of John Butler... he really didn't want to work, so he didn't. He just got really good on guitar and makes money that way now! Some might call it brave, I think he just knew what he didn't want to do.

Another thing... if we had WSDE, do you think the companies would have to be pretty small? I tried to follow up on Thalassa's magic number for group dynamics. The highest number I could find was 10! After that, the group just kind of destroys itself. Applying this to business, how chaotic would that be. There would have to be many businesses all doing the same thing. However, that could mean many places for people who don't fit in to work.

There was a report on the telly last night about a (very) small farming town that bought their own pub http://www.sbs.com.au/news/thefeed/s...-watering-hole. It might be a good example of WSDE.

I really like this critique of Wolff's idea of WSDE http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/reviews/...846-247-1.html which points out the flaws of democracy and how that might be magnified in the workplace. It also included a link to Wolff's interview. For those of us who are auditory learners: https://vimeo.com/60234703

[DanieMarie]

Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

An good alternative to capitalism would be any economic system where the means of production are commonly owned and democratically managed. Libertarian socialism, undeniably, in whatever form (syndicalism, communism, mutualism, etc).

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Socialism doesn't exist on a scale. Socialism is a set of many various economic systems that have one thing in common: social ownership of the means of production. Some forms of socialism are obviously more radical than others, but all are anti-capitalist.



What you describe is social democracy. This is completely different from socialism. Social democracy is a synthesis of capitalism and the welfare state (it was advocated by the most moderate reformist socialists as a means of transitioning to democratic socialism, but this idea has been abandoned in the modern day). Any system that maintains any level of private ownership of the means of production is socialist.

Social democracy is a form of socialism. That was my whole point. Socialism exists on a scale. There are a gajillion socialist systems out there that mix various forms of state and private ownership. Stricter forms such as communism don't allow private ownership at all (although, in practice, many communist countries still had some degree of private ownership). Moderate forms such as social democracy and democratic socialism still allow degrees of private ownership of production.

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Pure capitalism is also fixed pricing, monopolies, starve on the street when you are too old or too sick to work, and beating small children that fall asleep during their 14 hour work day for which they are paid pennies.

Unfortunately, it seems my parent's generation forgot about the Gilded Age. The dose always makes the poison. Unfettered anything is bad.

Yep. People talk about how we don't "need" regulation anymore, or how we don't "need" unions. I think the current work situation is sheer proof of why we need those things. We talk about the fight to end 14-hour work days as if it's history, but there are MANY MANY people working 14-hour days in low wage jobs, just barely surviving. Long work hours are quickly becoming "normal" again, and we're treating it as if wanting to work a 40-hour week is "lazy." What will it take? Someone standing up and saying "we should let kids work full-time if they want to?" Is that when we're finally going to say "no"?

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

Social democracy is a form of socialism. That was my whole point. Socialism exists on a scale. There are a gajillion socialist systems out there that mix various forms of state and private ownership.

Absolutely correct!

Most countries, no matter how "capitalistic" they are, will still maintain government control over some industries, typically, the military, the police, the penal system, and frequently the postal system and education.

All of these industries could be privatized, and the US is in the process of privatizing education, the penal system, and large segments of the military. The effects, so far, are not good.

That a government may control certain other industries (health care, for example, or energy) may or may not be good. It depends on how well it is done.

[anunitu]

Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

If you are old enough,you might remember when health care was NON profit..hospitals were not obsessed with the bottom line. Health is BIG business these days,and the cost is always climbing higher,cause you need the numbers on your profit sheets.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

If you are old enough,you might remember when health care was NON profit..hospitals were not obsessed with the bottom line. Health is BIG business these days,and the cost is always climbing higher,cause you need the numbers on your profit sheets.

You also gotta pay for MRI equipment, skilled and well-practiced heart and brain surgeons, and long-term maintenance programs.

Profit is part of it, but not all of it.

[thalassa]

Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

Another thing... if we had WSDE, do you think the companies would have to be pretty small? I tried to follow up on Thalassa's magic number for group dynamics. The highest number I could find was 10! After that, the group just kind of destroys itself. Applying this to business, how chaotic would that be. There would have to be many businesses all doing the same thing. However, that could mean many places for people who don't fit in to work.

I'll see if I can find where I got this from later...can't now because I'm headed out to a job site.

There seem to be some different ways of calculating it that depend on the goals and purpose and outline of the group. Because of how institutions are governed, they can get bigger than a group. Also, if you factor in kinship ties (like in anthropological studies) the group can sustain a larger population before breaking down. Interestingly, one of the places where they've done research on this is with church size....it has to do with how many social ties one person can have, and how those social ties pan out (sort of like the Kevin Bacon game).

[ApexPredator54]

Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

EDIT: I do see that a typo in my last sentence might be confusing. It should read "isn't socialist".

Social democracy is a form of socialism. That was my whole point.

It's a capitalist economy with a welfare state. Just because you hand out welfare doesn't mean that your country operates with an economy based on social ownership of land, factories and resources... It's not socialism.

Socialism exists on a scale.

It doesn't. Either private property exists or it doesn't. Any system that maintains private ownership of land, natural resources or factories is not socialist. This isn't my distinction, this is the distinction of actual socialist philosophers and economists (not silly third way liberals who think social democracy is a "radical" centrist alternative, or more left-leaning social democrats who cherry pick Marx to suit their own agenda).

There are a gajillion socialist systems out there that mix various forms of state and private ownership.

The only example I can think of besides your claim would be state capitalism under the Soviet Union. The New Economic Policy is widely regarded by modern (read: not Stalinist anti-revisionists) socialists as a betrayal of socialism.

Secondly, you assume that "social" ownership is the same as "state" ownership, which is likely where this entire confusion started. Fascist Italy owned many means of production to fight WW2. That doesn't mean their ownership of the means of production was "social ownership". The same applies to social democracies. In fact, there are few examples of social ownership actually existing within a statist economy (I can't think of any where the means of production are managed by the workers).

Stricter forms such as communism don't allow private ownership at all (although, in practice, many communist countries still had some degree of private ownership).

Communism is only "strict" if you consider private ownership of the means of production and the inherent exploitation of a hierarchical, capitalist wage system to be "freedom". In the words of Proudhon, "Property is Theft!"

Secondly, what communist countries have existed? A few democratic socialist states have existed, and many Marxist "workers' states" and "peoples' republics" have betrayed socialism in the last century, but I wasn't aware of any actual communist countries. To be completely accurate, "communist country" is an oxymoron, seeing as a "classless, stateless, moneyless society" (Communism) cannot coexist with "the territory controlled by a state" (Country).

Moderate forms such as social democracy

Which is nothing more than a reformist socialist's idea of a transition from capitalism to socialism that has now been appropriated by "radical centrists" and idealistic liberals.

and democratic socialism

Which is a meaningless term that includes everything from Orthodox Marxism to radical anarcho-communism.

still allow degrees of private ownership of production.

If they did, they would cease to be socialist immediately. Every socialist agrees on this. The only people who don't accept that social democracy isn't socialism are social democrats themselves and allergic-to-fact American conservatives.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

I can't get into everything in your post right now because I'm working, but your sheer ignorance of former socialist countries is astounding. I live in the former GDR and a lot of my friends and in-laws are East Germans, and I can tell you that there were various forms of private enterprise and ownership in East Germany. It was limited, but it did exist. Just an example, but the same can be said for several other Eastern European communist countries.

I think it's rich when people who have never even been near a socialist or former socialist country pretend that they know how these systems worked in practice.

[thalassa]

Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

If they did, they would cease to be socialist immediately. Every socialist agrees on this.

When, pray tell, did you get around to polling every single socialist in history?

Most things exist on a scale, including this one. There is only one absolute...and that is there is only one absolute.