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Druidism's foundations

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  • #16
    Re: Druidism's foundations

    So I'm just really reading into this thread out of curiosity. Could someone please maybe dumb it down for me and explain what all those random seeming abbreviations are? BNP, PIE, OBOD, ADF ... I started to do a search but nothing I find really seems to make any more sense. I mean, I'm trying to figure out what brain natriuretic peptides or the British National Party have to do with anything associated with druids.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Originally posted by DavidMcCann View Post
    Cultures draw on religion, but religion is not a manifestation of a culture
    Religion very much is a manifestation of a culture. It can even be argued that religion was a secondary creation of the forming of a culture.

    For example, you are the leader of a group of people, and that group keeps getting larger and larger. Now, all around you, things are happening that you do not have the scientific knowledge to be able to explain, such as lightning, earthquakes, rain, and even the migratory movements of certain animals. In order to keep your people from slipping into chaos and simply milling about in their own randomness, you settle upon a series of rules and regulations that must be followed. Now, why, your people ask, should they follow them? Because you said so? So you sit and think on it, and come up with an idea. Just last week, lightning struck and started a fire nearby, burning the fields where your group had been doing most of it's foraging. Well, ya know what? You take that, and tell everyone that a giant, all powerful being had gotten angry at the disorder of you guys, his chosen people, and so did that to punish you. Get yourselves in line, or it will happen again! Oh, and a week later when your hunters come back with a large amount of game because the herds were happening to run through the area? See? That god was so pleased with how things were going, he sent animals so that everyone could eat.

    In Nordic traditions, the gods are not all knowing, all powerful, or so high and mighty that they are above and beyond the experiences of humankind. They are petty, argumentative, greedy, violent, and humorous, as well as loving, compassionate, and wise. They did pretty awful and wonderful things to each other and to their worshipers, waging war, granting blessings, helping out, destroying folks ... just like people do to each other. I believe that gods have existed in one form or another for long before we were here, maybe even as just a writhing mass of divine energy, but it took us, and our ideas to eventually give them shape and form until they were able to become entities of their own.

    Look at Christianity, Islam and Judaism (I choose these because they are the easiest to prove the point I'm making). They are NOT just about god, they are religions about society, social structure, leadership, and control. The tenements are not just about what should be done for God, but what should be done for each other. Rules to keep society in line, rules to make life easier, rules to create a system so that they can continue as a people.

    As for those that dictate lifestyles, you cannot place that solely upon the shoulders of Abrahamic peoples. It was a good thing to fight hard and die in battle, so that the gods would take you up to Valhalla, so therefore the gods dictated that warfare and fighting was a good thing. In Hellenic life, you couldn't even wipe your nose without wondering if the way you were doing it was going to piss off some god or another. Want to go to war? Uh oh, gotta ask the gods! Want to dig a well? Hmm, do you think it will upset the gods that we're ripping up the soil?

    Religion and culture walk hand in hand, influenced by and created by each other. Though it's not a difficult argument to make that culture came first.
    "The streams called Ice-waves, those which were so long come from the fountain-heads that the yeasty venom upon them had hardened like the slag that runs out of the fire, - these then became ice; and when the ice halted and ceased to run, then it froze over above. But the drizzling rain that rose from the venom congealed to rime, and the rime increased, frost over frost, each over the other, even into Ginnungagap, the Yawning Void. Ginnungagap, which faced toward the northern quarter, became filled with heaviness, and masses of ice and rime, and from within, drizzling rain and gusts; but the southern part of the Yawning Void was lighted by those sparks and glowing masses which flew out of Múspellheim. Just as cold arose out of Niflheim, and all terrible things, so also all that looked toward Múspellheim became hot and glowing; but Ginnungagap was as mild as windless air, and when the breath of heat met the rime, so that it melted and dripped, life was quickened from the yeast-drops, by the power of that which sent the heat, and became a man's form. And that man is named Ymir, but the Rime-Giants call him Aurgelimir" - The Gylfaginning

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    • #17
      Re: Druidism's foundations

      Originally posted by Munin-Hugin View Post
      So I'm just really reading into this thread out of curiosity. Could someone please maybe dumb it down for me and explain what all those random seeming abbreviations are? BNP, PIE, OBOD, ADF ... I started to do a search but nothing I find really seems to make any more sense. I mean, I'm trying to figure out what brain natriuretic peptides or the British National Party have to do with anything associated with druids.
      Lol, sorry, that's totally my bad. Since I blog, I'm used to some of the Pagan blogosphere's common abbreviation and didn't think about people not knowing. :/


      BNP is Big Name Pagan, for those Pagans most people know about...usually authors, but sometimes the head of big organizations too

      PIE is Proto-Indo-European, for the language group common to Indo-Europeans before they split into their own languages...it used as shorthand for pretty everything belonging to PIE cultures, from religions to languages to other technologies

      ADF and OBOD (Ár nDraíocht Féin and Order of Bards, Ovates, and Druids) are probably the two largest/best known Druid groups, and they have the added advantage of basically representing the two "camps" in Druidry (really more like two midrange ends of a spectrum)
      “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

      “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
      ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

      "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
      ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

      "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

      Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
      sigpic

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      • #18
        Re: Druidism's foundations

        Originally posted by DavidMcCann View Post
        Having smacked the OP for being offensive (how many Druids here were offended?) you then post this:

        Do as I say, not as I do? For the record, I am offended by being called a liar and having my religion compared to a re-enactment society.

        Cultures draw on religion, but religion is not a manifestation of a culture. Culture is about society, religion is about gods. The Hellenic gods did not command the Greeks to hate women (which they didn't) and I doubt that the Norse gods commanded people to practice piracy. The concept of gods who dictate lifestyles is Abrahamic.

        It is perfectly fine to disagree with people, and to engage in civil discussion and debate about a subject that you do not see eye to eye on.

        It is not fine to make personal attacks, passive aggressive insults or misrepresent the comments of other members.

        Thalassa's posts in this thread so far have been diplomatic and civil. The above post is not. At no point has anyone called you a liar. The re-enactment society comments were used as very valid analogy to demonstrate the points of view being discussed. They were not offensive in nature. Thalassa was also not demonstrating any form of hypocrisy that I could see.

        David, you have a right to be offended by whatever you would like to be offended about. You have a right to voice your opinions and experiences in a CIVIL manner. You even have a right to call BS on anything that another member has said (in a polite and diplomatic manner). However, you do not have a right to mouth off at other members or insult them for comments that they did not actually make. And personally, I think you should be thankful that it was me who pulled you up on this and not Thalassa, who is an owner of the site. She has far more patience and diplomacy than I do, but her Doom is far scarier than my Doom.

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        • #19
          Re: Druidism's foundations

          Hopefully this is back to or more on topic.

          I don't know if the gods get bored with one kind of worship or not (Catholicism may be a mark against that since some churches and cathedrals down here still perform the mass in latin unless someone requests otherwise.)

          However I am a medieval period re-enactor who has lived in medieval conditions for 3 weeks before my health started to collapse (Allergies) And we were using the height of hygiene for the period (Viking believe it or not. Everyone HAD to bathe in frigid water - we get snow up here in winter and this took place in late autumn) As part of the experiment we had a (two month in the end ) Stew. We had to sign releases acknowledging the stupidity of our actions. (Please note a local legal peculiarity - we could still have sued if things had gone pair shaped enough - duty of care is a legal biggy here and signed releases have no legal standing.) Funnily enough I was overall Healthier (no antihistamines for 3 week b4 I had to give up and take them - as opposed to 3 days normally max. in civilized society b4 I had surgery to widen my sinuses) However I guarantee that life like nothing we could imagine. We had to catch something in a trap or shoot it with a bow to get a share of stew that night ( the stew was nice but impossible to describe - after 3 weeks it had rabbit, mutton, venison and several other thing in it as well as alot of vegetables - not potatoes or sweet potatoes though)

          We can however be sure that any vaguely historical re-enactment of druidism would be considered brutal beyond belief in our times. Living like we did in proper felted wool viking design tents (arguable accuracy - would we have been wealthy enough to have them?) was brutal - the most brutal task was the ,most necessary - collecting enough firewood. we also did wrestling and weapons training daily.

          It is entirely possible - even likely - that some original druidic practices included thing that would be anywhere from borderline nuts ( I'd still do them level) like ritual scarification and tattooing all the way to criminal and unconscionable in today's world like ritual sacrifice of criminals and the willing elderly at the onset of winter and the winter solstice to appease the gods that still performed a legitimate social purpose at the time they were performed. The context and times in which they were performed is KEY.

          Any truly successful religion must adapt to it's times (this is not where I'd, personally, classify Christianity in the main. Sorry guys. look up Australian Royal commission into institutional child abuse and see how many christian offenders they are. What started in ancient times as pederasty has become pedophilia and it's not ok! Trust me I'm picking up a fragment of the pieces of that sort of mess!)

          This is where I like Re-constructionist over Re-enactment - a re-constructionist tries to find the best - and discard the worst.

          This is the Key point Druidisim to my knowledge is almost entirely re-constructionist - not re-enactment

          Just my two cents worth.

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          • #20
            Re: Druidism's foundations

            Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post

            Thalassa's posts in this thread so far have been diplomatic and civil. The above post is not. At no point has anyone called you a liar. The re-enactment society comments were used as very valid analogy to demonstrate the points of view being discussed. They were not offensive in nature.
            The tone may be civil, but the attitude - recons are either like the SCA or being "as disingenuous ... as lying" - was not. When I join a group of neopagans I always end up reminded of the communication difficulties discussed in

            I think I shall quietly leave.

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            • #21
              Re: Druidism's foundations

              Originally posted by DavidMcCann View Post
              The tone may be civil, but the attitude - recons are either like the SCA or being "as disingenuous ... as lying" - was not. When I join a group of neopagans I always end up reminded of the communication difficulties discussed in

              I think I shall quietly leave.
              ...that would be a crappy attitude if that had been what I said or meant. I never said that all recons are liars or that they are disingenuous except in a very specific context (which I felt was comparable to misattributing the modern origins of practice as historical), something you either missed or chose to ignore. And that specific context was that when recons pick and choose which ancient practices and beliefs to reconstruct, they are changing the context and the meaning of the practices and beliefs because they are a product of a particular place and time and culture that is radically different from our own. Most recons, in my experience, realize this and freely (or in some cases grudgingly) admit it.

              Now, you may not like that opinion or agree with it, but you don't need to mischaracterize it.
              “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

              “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
              ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

              "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
              ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

              "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

              Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
              sigpic

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Druidism's foundations

                Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                And I don't think any of them can, even if they actually wanted to and truly thought they could...
                The closest you'll find is a couple of Roman Recon groups, like Nova Roma or Respublica Romana. They are oriented towards reviving Roman culture inasmuch as they can in modern day, in addition to the religious aspects. This has led, especially with Nova Roma, to reenactors becoming a significant demographic, eventually to the detriment of the religious reconstruction side of things.

                But even then, they're more on the tack of "let's bring back and live Roman virtues, while dropping the sexism and slavery and militarism stuff." Bring back the good stuff, but leave the bad stuff where it belongs...though, in my opinion, doing this blindly just ignores the rather rich context that ancient Roman society had to these things.

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