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    Re: Communism!

    I need to put a post-it note over the little hole on my computer. Somebody seems to have hacked my camera...
    Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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      Re: Communism!

      Originally posted by thalassa View Post
      Does a tree making an acorn create a new tree? Or does the squirrel forgetting the acorn, the soil quality, the rainfall, the sun, etc create the new tree? Or maybe they all do.

      If no one had bought Windows Bill Gates wouldn't need to hire people. Yes, business owners hire people, but consumers drive job creation. When consumers don't consume, it's called "Sorry, we have to let you go."

      (and it's the problem of unrestrained capitalism--there's no such thing as infinite growth when there are finite resources and finite consumers--which is the part of Nick Hanauer's talk that most people miss)

      What most people hear when they hear his talk isr the other half of the false dichotomy...and that's okay because its the under-represented half.
      On top of that, there are a number of other factors that came into play in Bill Gates' success. Stories like his are never cut and dry cases of geniuses creating products. Bill Gates also had an education, and when you look into his history, he also had several opportunities as well. First of all, he came from a fairly privileged background and went to a school that could provide him with a computer in the 60s to work and practice with, which wasn't at all common at the time. He also got into computing at exactly the right time. Libertarians love to believe that absolutely anyone can be a Bill Gates if they just put their time and energy towards it, but they can't. They need the right conditions, the right idea, the right timing, and the right market.

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        Re: Communism!

        Most of all, they need support. People invested in Bill first, before he made his billions.

        No single rich person has got rich on their own. They didn't make the wealth, everyone involved did. The director of a company plays one role and you can't say that the creation of jobs and wealth lays in any one group. Yes, this initial company creator, be it Bill or otherwise, did play a decisive role in the creation of jobs, but so did the employees by joining up and encouraging further investment. So did the investors who enabled expansion, so did consumers who paid for the expansion.
        I'm not one to ever pray for mercy
        Or to wish on pennies in the fountain or the shrine
        But that day you know I left my money
        And I thought of you only
        All that copper glowing fine

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          Re: Communism!

          Originally posted by DanieMarie View Post
          On top of that, there are a number of other factors that came into play in Bill Gates' success. Stories like his are never cut and dry cases of geniuses creating products. Bill Gates also had an education, and when you look into his history, he also had several opportunities as well. First of all, he came from a fairly privileged background and went to a school that could provide him with a computer in the 60s to work and practice with, which wasn't at all common at the time. He also got into computing at exactly the right time. Libertarians love to believe that absolutely anyone can be a Bill Gates if they just put their time and energy towards it, but they can't. They need the right conditions, the right idea, the right timing, and the right market.
          I agree with you about this. In theory in a democracy or in the case of the US, Constitutional Republic, all men and women have the same amount of chance to do what Mr. Gates did. Unfortunately in any socioeconomic system this is the case. Even true communism will not change the fact that some people come from privileged backgrounds and tend to have a better chance than others. This does not mean that others cannot do it only that their roads are harder.

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            Re: Communism!

            Originally posted by Taulmaril View Post
            I agree with you about this. In theory in a democracy or in the case of the US, Constitutional Republic, all men and women have the same amount of chance to do what Mr. Gates did. Unfortunately in any socioeconomic system this is the case. Even true communism will not change the fact that some people come from privileged backgrounds and tend to have a better chance than others. This does not mean that others cannot do it only that their roads are harder.
            Of course it won't change that. I've never argued for communism. If you've read any of my posts earlier in this thread, I spent a lot of time arguing against communism. Unfortunately, the other extreme you're advocating for is also problematic.

            You've also missed the entire point of my post, which was that no one can become Bill Gates alone. People like Bill Gates need teachers, mentors, resources, customers, investors, etc, etc, etc, etc. Not everyone has access to those.

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              Re: Communism!

              The problem with privilege (or lack thereof) is that is skews so many other things. In the UK, almost half of all Tory MPs attended Independent or Private Schools. For the general population, that figure is just 7%. Half of the Cabinet went to Oxbridge, a figure woefully different from that of most people's experience.

              A government comprising people whose experience (due to mostly wealth and privilege) is so different from that of the people they govern, is bound to be unable to understand the electorate.
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                Re: Communism!

                I'm pretty sure David Cameron has no real clue how normal people live, let alone poor people. Almost everything he says makes that clear.

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                  Re: Communism!

                  Originally posted by DanieMarie View Post
                  I'm pretty sure David Cameron has no real clue how normal people live, let alone poor people. Almost everything he says makes that clear.
                  Very true.
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                  Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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                    Re: Communism!

                    It's worth remembering that the US government pursues its citizens for taxes regardless of where they live. The only other country that does this is Eritrea. Land of the Free indeed.

                    - - - Updated - - -

                    You don't have to be Communist to be oppressive.
                    I'm not one to ever pray for mercy
                    Or to wish on pennies in the fountain or the shrine
                    But that day you know I left my money
                    And I thought of you only
                    All that copper glowing fine

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                      Re: Communism!

                      Originally posted by DanieMarie View Post
                      Of course it won't change that. I've never argued for communism. If you've read any of my posts earlier in this thread, I spent a lot of time arguing against communism. Unfortunately, the other extreme you're advocating for is also problematic.

                      You've also missed the entire point of my post, which was that no one can become Bill Gates alone. People like Bill Gates need teachers, mentors, resources, customers, investors, etc, etc, etc, etc. Not everyone has access to those.
                      I didn't miss the point. I actually agreed with and supported the point. We are all connected. The great tragedy, regardless of socioeconomic system, is that too many people outright refuse to be part of the social contract. That apathy I will admit appears to be very high amongst the wealthy elite.

                      - - - Updated - - -

                      Originally posted by Tylluan Penry View Post
                      The problem with privilege (or lack thereof) is that is skews so many other things. In the UK, almost half of all Tory MPs attended Independent or Private Schools. For the general population, that figure is just 7%. Half of the Cabinet went to Oxbridge, a figure woefully different from that of most people's experience.

                      A government comprising people whose experience (due to mostly wealth and privilege) is so different from that of the people they govern, is bound to be unable to understand the electorate.
                      Absolutely. And that is the standard here in the States as well. When we won our freedom from Britain and set up our form of government, the founding fathers argued against the sort of elitism as we see in the US. Their vision was for the common man to be able to attain even the highest office in the country. We were supposed to be governed by consent of the people. They would be rolling in their graves for sure. We watch as these elites pander to their electorate, the great PACS and lobbyists and the normal people wonder how their interests are being taken care of. I cannot think of one politician in office right now that didn't get a far above average education.

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                        Re: Communism!

                        I apologize for not being more active in my own thread.

                        "One man with a gun can control 100 without one." -Vladimir Lenin
                        It is the same with money. I bet I could pay a homeless person to throw a wine bottle at any random person. Yes you could argue that the person I am paying is a moron but I think I make at least a point.

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                        Umm Vietnam, Afghanistan (Soviet liberation era) Iraq, Afghanistan (now).

                        "Fascism is capitalism in decay."-Vladimir Lenin

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                          Re: Communism!

                          yet here you are. On the internet.

                          Think on that.
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                            Re: Communism!

                            Originally posted by Medusa View Post
                            yet here you are. On the internet.

                            Think on that.
                            The Internets :P is the most powerful weapon a civilian can wield. That is a fact. The problem is the trolls.

                            [drunkenness] Long live STALIN, Long live Lenin, long live the CCCP! [drunkenness/]
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                              Re: Communism!

                              Since this thread has spilled onto other parts of the forum, I'm giving it a vacation until I decide its fate.

                              How's that for oppression?
                              �Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted. And experience is often the most valuable thing you have to offer.�
                              ― Randy Pausch, The Last Lecture
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