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  • #16
    Re: elements

    The qualities of fire, classically (such as Greek and Semitic) is heat and dryness. Water is the opposite, wet and cold, yet it causes ignition of some fuels which become gaseous substances, potassium in water creates hydrogen gas (like how fire drives out turpenes and wood alcohol amongst other things) and potassium oxide, which is technically 'burnt' (and fire creates physical substance, ash, which cannot be burnt as it is already burnt). So is water fire?

    In classical elements they is separate. If we use your definition of fire, then water is half fire.
    I'm not one to ever pray for mercy
    Or to wish on pennies in the fountain or the shrine
    But that day you know I left my money
    And I thought of you only
    All that copper glowing fine

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    • #17
      Re: elements

      This is completely unscientific, but I place it as air. Anything that is created by the weather (with the exception of fire tornadoes and dust storms), I consider to be in the realm of air. Rain/hail/snow is water/air mix. Yes, I know this makes my prior answer make no sense.
      “You must be shapeless, formless, like water. When you pour water in a cup, it becomes the cup. When you pour water in a bottle, it becomes the bottle. When you pour water in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Water can drip and it can crash. Become like water my friend.” -- Bruce Lee

      Army of Darkness: Guardians of the Chat

      Honorary Nord.

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      • #18
        Re: elements

        but the classical elements system are just one of many systems of elements
        “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

        “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
        ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

        "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
        ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

        "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

        Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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        • #19
          Re: elements

          Originally posted by thalassa View Post
          but the classical elements system are just one of many systems of elements
          Very true. There's the Chinese elements, for example (fire, water, earth, wood, metal), and the classical system plus soul/spirit/et all.
          “You must be shapeless, formless, like water. When you pour water in a cup, it becomes the cup. When you pour water in a bottle, it becomes the bottle. When you pour water in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Water can drip and it can crash. Become like water my friend.” -- Bruce Lee

          Army of Darkness: Guardians of the Chat

          Honorary Nord.

          Habbalah Vlogs

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          • #20
            Re: elements

            Originally posted by Briton View Post
            Furthermore, lightning can cross water, as can earth. Fire cannot. Lightning can travel through earth and be absorbed by it. Fire is extinguished and water passes through unchanged.
            I'm still not clear how you are classifying lightning.

            - - - Updated - - -

            Originally posted by DragonsFriend View Post
            Trying to fit physical worldly events into the spiritual realm can be both convoluted and confusing for me because as I understand the Elements it is they which are used to define our spiritual world and not the physical.
            I would argue the opposite, ie it's confusing when you attempt to map human feelings onto natural elements.

            - - - Updated - - -

            Originally posted by Briton View Post
            Regarding that elements don't mix may be a part of an ancient philosophy on classical elements, but I don't know. To me it's common sense. The fact water becomes steam in contact with fire is a result of their incompatibility. One must drive out the other. One will always win. Water will not remain in close company with fire.
            I regard the elements as discreet properties. So if you mix water and fire then the result is air element ( steam ).
            Once a man, like the sea I raged;
            Once a woman, like the earth I gave;
            And there is in fact more earth than sea.
            Genesis lyric

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            • #21
              Re: elements

              That's like saying oil and water mix. They separate almost immediately... Therefore they mix. Don't see the logic in that.

              By the way, the 'classical model' regards the models that are not modern hundreds of elements. Hebrew science is not typically 'Classical' but is considered so as they shared the concepts of water, air, fire and earth.

              - - - Updated - - -

              I also can't see how steam is air, it's just very dispersed water.

              Just my opinion. I don't think I can say any more on it so I'll just agree to disagree with those that I do.
              I'm not one to ever pray for mercy
              Or to wish on pennies in the fountain or the shrine
              But that day you know I left my money
              And I thought of you only
              All that copper glowing fine

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: elements

                Originally posted by Briton View Post
                I also can't see how steam is air, it's just very dispersed water.
                The traditional elements are about properties, how things feel and behave. It's not about chemical composition. So steam has the properties of the air element. Applying a more modern understanding, you could talk about the transition from liquid state to gas state. With this reasoning ice would be earth element because it is solid, not water because it has the same chemical composition.

                I'm still not clear how you are classifying lightning though. I'm not sure I see a valid objection to classifying it as fire element.
                Last edited by Spiny Norman; 12 Jan 2016, 02:56.
                Once a man, like the sea I raged;
                Once a woman, like the earth I gave;
                And there is in fact more earth than sea.
                Genesis lyric

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                • #23
                  Re: elements

                  The Chinese "elements" are not elements in the way the Pagans use elements. The Chinese system are processes. Earth feeds Wood, Wood feeds Fire, Fire makes Metal, Metal holds Water, and Water feeds Earth. For a better understanding you can go HERE
                  The Dragon sees infinity and those it touches are forced to feel the reality of it.
                  I am his student and his partner. He is my guide and an ominous friend.

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