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Is the belief in a soul or spirit compulsory for Pagans?

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  • #16
    Re: Is the belief in a soul or spirit compulsory for Pagans?

    Originally posted by Spiny Norman View Post
    You say "imbued", so you mean this is a belief you have?
    No, not a belief, a fact - when spirit and/or soul are defined as I have.
    Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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    • #17
      Re: Is the belief in a soul or spirit compulsory for Pagans?

      Most people who practice a pagan path are in some way Animistic. Even though I have walked a Pagan path in two traditions covering 40+ years I have a very limited exposure to other traditions but I have not met a Pagan who did not believe in spirit. Most believe is spirit in any living being and I would say that in my limited experience most believe in spirit in at least some inanimate objects. To answer the original question; Is it compulsory? No, but it is quite common if not universal.
      The Dragon sees infinity and those it touches are forced to feel the reality of it.
      I am his student and his partner. He is my guide and an ominous friend.

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      • #18
        Re: Is the belief in a soul or spirit compulsory for Pagans?

        I don't believe that anything is compulsory for pagans.
        “You must be shapeless, formless, like water. When you pour water in a cup, it becomes the cup. When you pour water in a bottle, it becomes the bottle. When you pour water in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Water can drip and it can crash. Become like water my friend.” -- Bruce Lee

        Army of Darkness: Guardians of the Chat

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        • #19
          Re: Is the belief in a soul or spirit compulsory for Pagans?

          Compulsory? No. Very little is compulsory to be a Pagan, except probably choosing to identify thusly.



          I suppose another way of asking the OP question would be "Is materialism compatible with Paganism?"
          Absolutely. But for individual Pagans, it may or may not be compatible with their personal beliefs.
          “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

          “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
          ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

          "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
          ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

          "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

          Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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          • #20
            Re: Is the belief in a soul or spirit compulsory for Pagans?

            I think this is a much trickier question than it originally seems. My kneejerk reaction is to say 'no, you don't have to believe in a soul to be pagan'. But then, as Corbin points out... it depends on the definition of 'soul'. There are a few people here at PF that I can think of offhand who would probably state they don't believe in souls... but I would wager that they do believe in several of the aspects of the body/mind complex that are commonly defined as 'soul' or 'spirit'. When you dig deeply into this question, it becomes difficult to actually define what a 'soul' is, and to separate it entirely from commonly accepted psychological and mental functions. If a soul is the part of someone that thinks and/or feels... well it's kind of difficult to not believe in the part of you that thinks and/or feels!

            We can only truly answer this question within the context of a certain definition of 'soul', which makes finding a solid answer a very difficult thing indeed! The discussion then becomes more about 'what is a soul' then 'is belief in it a pre-requisite for paganism'. Personally, I have a fairly complex definition of the 'soul', because to me the soul is not just one thing, but a matrix of parts and functions of the body/mind system. I don't think for one second that anyone has to believe in my definition of the 'soul' in order to be pagan... they don't even have to believe in it to be Heathen or NT (which is what it's based on). I DO think you need to have some belief in some sort of 'soul' in order to be a non-core shamanist... but that's not something that we can extrapolate onto paganism in general.

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            • #21
              Re: Is the belief in a soul or spirit compulsory for Pagans?

              Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
              No, not a belief, a fact - when spirit and/or soul are defined as I have.
              Sorry but I'm still not getting it. Do you mean you believe your computer actually has a soul and a spirit, or do you mean you relate to it as if it did? And what benefit do you gain from choosing to seeing it that way?

              Is this an example of anthropomorphism? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropomorphism

              - - - Updated - - -

              Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
              I think this is a much trickier question than it originally seems. My kneejerk reaction is to say 'no, you don't have to believe in a soul to be pagan'. But then, as Corbin points out... it depends on the definition of 'soul'.
              Yes, it's tricky, I hadn't realised that people think about it in so many different ways. Like "God", "soul" has so many different meanings as to be pretty meaningless really.
              Once a man, like the sea I raged;
              Once a woman, like the earth I gave;
              And there is in fact more earth than sea.
              Genesis lyric

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              • #22
                Re: Is the belief in a soul or spirit compulsory for Pagans?

                Originally posted by Spiny Norman View Post
                Sorry but I'm still not getting it. Do you mean you believe your computer actually has a soul and a spirit, or do you mean you relate to it as if it did? And what benefit do you gain from choosing to seeing it that way?
                OK, the problem is (I think) that you want to see "the soul" as mystical, "not normal" thing, and that, like most people, you don't know much about what Alchemy really, really is.

                I don't want to launch into a disertation on Alchemy right now, so let me try explaining like this -

                Instead thinking of the words "spirit" and "soul" as words that identify "things," think of them as words that identify "concepts."

                If I were to say "I enjoy the freedom to love" you would not wonder where in me "freedom" or "love" can be found. They are spread across the neurons and grey matter of my brain, through assorted hormones, my genes, the entire evolutionary history of my species, and the physical conditions of the universe going way back to the big bang, or before (if there was a before before the big bang) that gave rise to me.

                They only come together as "things" when it is understood that they are concepts, and not actual physical things with independent existence in and of themselves.

                The same is true for "spirit" and "soul."

                So, yes - my computer has a soul because I give it one by making it part of my world. An actual soul, not a metaphorical soul.

                - - - Updated - - -

                Oh. Let me add the benefit...

                In short form, the goal of Alchemy is to acheive perfection. Perfection is achieved by balancing three components - spirit, soul, body (thought, feeling, physical) so that they work in harmony together, rather than fighting against each other, as is more typical.

                Through experiencing the reality that these three components are parts of a single matrix, not only in myself, but extending throughout all of existence, dealing with the internal and external becomes a theoretically attainable possibility. But it ain't easy.

                Since you have a background in Buddhism, think of it as "dispelling the illusion of seperate things."

                For more info, The Book of Lambspring deals specifically with the relationship between the spirit, soul, and body in about as lucid a manner as you will find in Alchemy texts.
                Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                • #23
                  Re: Is the belief in a soul or spirit compulsory for Pagans?

                  This may lead into the whole idea of artificial intelligence. The idea that an artificial life form comes to the point of "awareness" of its existence above the fact of not being biological in its existence. This has been explored in many science fiction stories,2001,a space Odyssey with the HAL entity as an example. I think perhaps B. De. may consider his computer "Alive" in some way because it interacts with him,or perhaps because he interacts with it.

                  - - - Updated - - -

                  We can also go back to the days when Women were considered without souls. We also see the argument that animals do not possess a soul.

                  Womens souls
                  MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                  all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                  NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                  don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




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                  my new page here,let me know what you think.


                  nothing but the shadow of what was

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                  • #24
                    Re: Is the belief in a soul or spirit compulsory for Pagans?

                    Originally posted by anunitu View Post
                    ...I think perhaps B. De. may consider his computer "Alive" in some way because it interacts with him,or perhaps because he interacts with it.
                    Not alive, but with a spirit and soul, because I interact with it.

                    I also interact with a hammer, a teaspoon, and my TV. Therefore, they have spirits and souls as well.

                    P.S. Although you can say it backwards as well - I am able to interact with them because I have given them a spirit and soul.
                    Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Is the belief in a soul or spirit compulsory for Pagans?

                      An interesting concept B. De. Could we use the word connection in the place of "Alive" then?

                      I think the concept is harder because of how we personally define the words "Soul" and "spirit"
                      MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                      all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                      NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                      don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                      sigpic

                      my new page here,let me know what you think.


                      nothing but the shadow of what was

                      witchvox
                      http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

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                      • #26
                        Re: Is the belief in a soul or spirit compulsory for Pagans?

                        Originally posted by anunitu View Post
                        An interesting concept B. De. Could we use the word connection in the place of "Alive" then?

                        I think the concept is harder because of how we personally define the words "Soul" and "spirit"
                        Sure - you can use "connection." "Spirit" and "soul," then, would define the type of connection.

                        Definitions are a HUGE problem when talking about all kinds of things. Without first defining terms people frequently end up talking about different things while thinking they are talking about the same things, leading to all kinds of hilarious slapstick comedies, such as wars.

                        How often do you find two different sides in the same war, both fighting for "freedom"?
                        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Is the belief in a soul or spirit compulsory for Pagans?

                          Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                          Since you have a background in Buddhism, think of it as "dispelling the illusion of seperate things."
                          Sure, I get the interconnectedness angle, but as you'll know a central theme in Buddhism is sunyata or emptiness, ie stuff doesn't have a soul or essence. And neither do we.

                          But anyway, if you're equating spirit with thought, and soul with feeling, do you then believe that your computer thinks and feels?

                          - - - Updated - - -

                          Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                          I am able to interact with them because I have given them a spirit and soul.
                          I don't get that. I am good with a hammer, but that doesn't rely on me believing the hammer has a soul and a spirit. I don't see how interaction relies on that assumption when we're discussing inanimate objects.
                          Once a man, like the sea I raged;
                          Once a woman, like the earth I gave;
                          And there is in fact more earth than sea.
                          Genesis lyric

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                          • #28
                            Re: Is the belief in a soul or spirit compulsory for Pagans?

                            Originally posted by Spiny Norman View Post
                            But anyway, if you're equating spirit with thought, and soul with feeling, do you then believe that your computer thinks and feels?
                            Good question...

                            I'd say yes, the computer thinks and feels, but it thinks and feels like a computer, not like me. And the thoughts and feels of a computer are so alien to me that I can not grasp them, or even imagine what they might be like.

                            Or, maybe more acurrately, its a malformed question. At the same time it does and it doesn't... We share spirit and soul because we engage in the mutual creation of our spirits and souls... We are one. We are Borg.



                            - - - Updated - - -

                            Originally posted by Spiny Norman View Post
                            Sure, I get the interconnectedness angle, but as you'll know a central theme in Buddhism is sunyata or emptiness, ie stuff doesn't have a soul or essence. And neither do we.
                            Grasp the concept, not the words. Do not confuse the finger pointing at the moon for the moon.

                            - - - Updated - - -

                            Originally posted by Spiny Norman View Post
                            I don't get that. I am good with a hammer, but that doesn't rely on me believing the hammer has a soul and a spirit. I don't see how interaction relies on that assumption when we're discussing inanimate objects.
                            It doesn't matter. Like evolution, it happens whether you believe in it or not, and whether you are aware of it or not...

                            In the big picture, you, I, the hammer, are just tiny things. What is, is. What is not, is not. The opinions and perceptions of tiny things are meanibgful, but not in control.
                            Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Is the belief in a soul or spirit compulsory for Pagans?

                              This brings to mind the idea named "The singularity"

                              Sauce of the Machine
                              MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                              all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                              NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                              don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                              sigpic

                              my new page here,let me know what you think.


                              nothing but the shadow of what was

                              witchvox
                              http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Is the belief in a soul or spirit compulsory for Pagans?

                                Originally posted by anunitu View Post
                                We can also go back to the days when Women were considered without souls. We also see the argument that animals do not possess a soul.
                                You would never believe how hilarious I find this.

                                The word "soul" is feminine in gender ("spirit" is male in gender).

                                In Alchemy, the soul repesents "female energy" - the "slow and steady" force, like the flowing water that wears away the stone in The Tao Te Ching, while spirit represents "male energy" - the "fast and explosive" energy, like a bomb.

                                In Alchemy, and picture or reference to a female refers to some aspect of soul, while any picture or reference to a male fefers to some aspect of spirit.
                                Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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