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Thread: Make America great - for everybody!

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    The Gaze of the Abyss B. de Corbin's Avatar
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    Re: Make America great - for everybody!

    No, it's where we look at bs vs truthiness.
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    Re: Make America great - for everybody!

    Truthiness. That's a very accurate word

    My word is janky. I use it quite often.
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    lady sings the blues DanieMarie's Avatar
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    Re: Make America great - for everybody!

    Quote Originally Posted by iris View Post
    Ok. First off, and this is important, don't trust everything you read in the media. Second. I'm currently sitting about 20 kilometers from Copenhagen, the capital of Denmark (the point of this being I am in Denmark. Have been for the past 23 years).
    The taxes I won't disagree with. They're high, we know. What is not mentioned is that those taxes ensure free healthcare and school for us, hell! young people at university actually get payed to study,not much, rarely enough to pay our rent, but enough that we can focus on studying over working. Our taxes pay for that. Unemployed get payed from the state, noone will be left without an income without choosing it - they also get very intensive help and guidance looking for jobs and improving qualifications.
    Nursing homes are free, so is any help elders might need in their own home. Our taxes pay that. They also pay research into vital areas like enviorment and illness. They support youth clubs, local sports teams and private initiatives into integration and helping kids from difficult backgrounds. Just to mention some things.

    Next up: no cars. Well. Have you seen the size of the country? We don't need cars. We are 5-6 million people. We would all fit snugly in Paris. It takes me 5 hours to cross the country by train. I'd say 8 by car. And our public transport (despite how much we whine about it, and that's a lot) is very good... we use bikes a lot, and we're F*ing proud of it, because why shouldn't we? It's good for the enviorment. Why take the car if you can walk or take your bike?... but we do have cars. They're expensive to buy, yes. But not impossible. It's not because we can't afford them we don't have them. We may not have money for the newest model. But even I could afford a car if I wanted. My profession? Actor. Aka unemployed. I grew up in a working class family, but we always had a car. Most of my life we had 2.
    The food? Expensive if you buy the wrong stuff. There are higher taxes on unhealthy food in an attempt to make the healthy cheaper. But we get by
    I'm not from Denmark, but this pretty much sums up what we know about our neighbour as well. Also, it's not like your food is coming from that far away I think Germany exports a lot of food to Denmark, and it's only a few hundred kilometers away. All in all, it's a lot closer than a lot of food going from one US state to another. We have geography on our side in Europe.

    You know, I'll never understand how some people can consider it "free" to be laden with student debt and health care costs and such. How can you make a free choice about your work and your lifestyle when you have to pay down your debt at the start of your career like that? Over here, we have a kind of freedom, too. We can graduate and do almost anything we want, without really worrying all that much about money. We can actually spend the time working our way up in something we want to do rather than take anything and slave away just to pay bills or get benefits. I'll take our high taxes and have THAT kind of freedom ANY day.

    As for cars, I find it hilarious that some Americans pity our lack of them. Even though a lot of people still drive in Berlin, it's a stance of pure entitlement and frankly, it's kind of stupid. Unless you're disabled or need to carry a lot of tools for your work, it's easier NOT to have a car here. On a bike, I'm not stuck in traffic (bikes take up way less space, so you're always at the front of the intersection when the light changes). 9 times out of 10, I can get to a place faster than someone in a car, and I don't have to pay for the gym. It's always a win-win scenario. Plus, even if you don't want to bike, why on earth would you burn your money on a car when we have one of the best public transport systems in the world? I think a lot of people in Northern Europe are also more conscious of the environment. They see a car and see an object that is spewing carbon into the atmosphere, and want no part in it. I know that's how I feel. Our household is getting to a point where we could probably afford a car, but we just don't want one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong but except for Canada and Australia, their racial population is mostly made up of well, themselves. Their immigration numbers are tiny. Hive minds make happy minds. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
    I don't know...I think this is simplifying things a little. First of all, there's more immigration in European countries than a lot of people think. It has caused discord over the past couple of decades (it would be naive to say it hasn't), and it's something that a lot of countries have had to come to terms with, but it's not an impossible situation. Denmark is less affected by the refugee crisis than a lot of other countries (it's one of the ones that's allowed to choose its own numbers rather than the distribution system the EU has cobbled together), but a lot of other countries have had massive numbers of immigrants and refugees come in over the past few years. Immigration statistics also don't tell the whole story because they don't tend to count movement within the EU. There is a LOT of movement within the EU, and just because someone comes from another European country doesn't mean they are at all culturally similar to people in their new country. After the Euro crisis, a lot of people came to northern countries from Spain, Italy, and Greece, and they have a totally different culture to Denmark, Sweden, or Germany. Plus, there has always been a high level of movement from Eastern European countries. It's not exactly like Europe is totally homogenous.

    Germany isn't exactly the happiest place, but I think that has a lot to do with the German character and German history, and not to do with circumstances. Germans are wont to worry, and a lot of the unhappiest places in this country are also the richest. Berlin is fairly poor, but it is one of the happiest places in Germany. That being said, we have a high quality of life here. We may not earn a lot of money and we may have high unemployment, but we have tons of green space, great access to public services, and it's affordable here (though, that one is sadly changing).

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    Re: Make America great - for everybody!

    I am not wealthy by any American standard but I own my home and two cars, outright. I have no debt and have owned three businesses as well as having worked for others. Why would I want to pay 50% of my income so that others didn't have to work? The cost of education has changed in the USA but it is coming back to being supported more through taxes. I worked my way through high school and college. I was on my own from the age of 17. At least in the USA you can work to get what you want, if you want it enough.
    The USA is not a democratic socialist country and it can never be as long as we have the constitution because the constitution guarantees a republican form of government to all the states.

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    Re: Make America great - for everybody!

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsFriend View Post
    I am not wealthy by any American standard but I own my home and two cars, outright. I have no debt and have owned three businesses as well as having worked for others. Why would I want to pay 50% of my income so that others didn't have to work? The cost of education has changed in the USA but it is coming back to being supported more through taxes. I worked my way through high school and college. I was on my own from the age of 17.

  6. #26
    lady sings the blues DanieMarie's Avatar
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    Re: Make America great - for everybody!

    Why not just build workhouses again so that poor people earn their keep? It worked oh so well the first time around.

    But in all seriousness, I'd rather have freedom of choice in where I live and what I do and not have to move "where the jobs are" or take anything to pay the bills than have two cars. What am I going to do with two cars in the city?

    Life isn't bleak with high taxes. I own an apartment in a capital city and have awesome access to health care and public services. I don't really have a high income, but when I have kids, I won't have to worry about how I'll give them a good life or help them with post secondary education. They will have everything they need to get their start in life. What they do after that is absolutely up to them, but they get to start their careers on an equal level.

    As much as I respect people in the US that pay their way through everything, I think those people should understand that they are the exception and not the rule. I also think it's rich when baby boomers get all high and mighty about it, because it might have been possible to get through university and pay off a house and end up debt free for their generation, but not for mine. If you're not already rich, forget it. Costs have exploded and wages have stagnated.
    Last edited by DanieMarie; 18 Mar 2016 at 08:10.

  7. #27
    Silver Member iris's Avatar
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    Re: Make America great - for everybody!

    Quote Originally Posted by DanieMarie View Post
    Why not just build workhouses again so that poor people earn their keep? It worked oh so well the first time around.

    But in all seriousness, I'd rather have freedom of choice in where I live and what I do and not have to move "where the jobs are" or take anything to pay the bills than have two cars. What am I going to do with two cars in the city?

    Life isn't bleak with high taxes. I own an apartment in a capital city and have awesome access to health care and public services. I don't really have a high income, but when I have kids, I won't have to worry about how I'll give them a good life or help them with post secondary education. They will have everything they need to get their start in life. What they do after that is absolutely up to them, but they get to start their careers on an equal level.

    As much as I respect people in the US that pay their way through everything, I think those people should understand that they are the exception and not the rule. I also think it's rich when baby boomers get all high and mighty about it, because it might have been possible to get through university and pay off a house and end up debt free for their generation, but not for mine. If you're not already rich, forget it. Costs have exploded and wages have stagnated.
    What Danie said!

    Just because one person can work hard and earn enough to own a house and cars, it doesn't mean everyone can. Or should. I respect those who do, but I also respect those who don't. People are different.
    Something I don't understand is why socialism somehow means lack of freedom...

    Anyway. Owning a house isn't the only way you can live. I don't own a house. My husband and I could probably buy one (yes we'd need to take a loan, but we'd be out of debt in 10 years time), we just don't want to, for us being able to move whenever we want without worrying about selling, that's freedom.
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  8. #28
    lady sings the blues DanieMarie's Avatar
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    Re: Make America great - for everybody!

    Quote Originally Posted by iris View Post
    What Danie said!

    Just because one person can work hard and earn enough to own a house and cars, it doesn't mean everyone can. Or should. I respect those who do, but I also respect those who don't. People are different.
    Something I don't understand is why socialism somehow means lack of freedom...

    Anyway. Owning a house isn't the only way you can live. I don't own a house. My husband and I could probably buy one (yes we'd need to take a loan, but we'd be out of debt in 10 years time), we just don't want to, for us being able to move whenever we want without worrying about selling, that's freedom.
    Yep, and to build on what you said, it's not like it's not possible to build up wealth here, either. Despite the taxes, there are lots of rich people in northern European countries. It's still possible to have high paid jobs, save up, and build your wealth. We live in rich countries full of rich industrialists and business owners. Heck, a lot of the fellow apartment owners in my building own like 5 apartments and rent them out for more money. If you're lucky enough to get rich, you'll still be rich. It's just that if you're everyone else, you still have a shot at the middle class without a huge struggle, and if you're one of the poor, your life won't be totally bleak and hopeless.

  9. #29
    The Gaze of the Abyss B. de Corbin's Avatar
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    Re: Make America great - for everybody!

    One day, Karma catches up with people who do not have compassion - if they are lucky.

    If not, they continue to be jerks for ever.

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  10. #30
    Live and learn anunitu's Avatar
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    Re: Make America great - for everybody!

    This.
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