Make America great - for everybody!

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Make America great - for everybody!

It only takes one good fall down some steps and suddenly you will be needing help.

Experience is the great teacher. Either listen to those who have had the experience, or have it yourself.

But if neither occures, admit that you know nothing, and are just blowing methane out yer arse.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Make America great - for everybody!

Balancing the budget isn't about defunding things you don't like willy-nilly, it's about dividing our expenditures by what we can afford to spend money on and what we can't afford to not spend money on. Reasonably and holistically.

OUTSTANDING observation!

Can a nation afford to cut expenses in, say, education?

Not if they want to be competetive with other nations.

Can a nation afford to ignore the findings of science?

Not if they want to exist as effective nations.

Can a nation afford to relegate different opinions and minds to ghettoes?

Not if they want to compete intellectually with other nations.

Effectiveness, progress, success - they all require the embrase of diversity. Without that, the result is stagnation and slow decay. Gangrene is not a desirable condition for a society.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Make America great - for everybody!

Oh no! The queen's 34 billion? Being held in "good faith" for the pople of the UK?

Yup. Especially that.

[thalassa]

Re: Make America great - for everybody!

Regarding the misuse of welfare, it's called fraud.

And if "welfare" programs were better funded, better staffed, and were more holistic in their approach, they could cut down on that. Sure, it would still happen, because all systems run inefficiencies, whether in nature, in mechanics, or in institutions. But when it comes to institutional inefficiencies, it's generally a matter of lack of oversight (and I have lots of experience observing institutional inefficiencies) rather than outright intentional fraud.

TBH, in my experience the most abusive of the system and entitled Americans are generally the lower middle class and upper lower class conservatives who think they got everything they had all by themselves and their own hard work and everyone else is an undeserving lazy pos--this would be about half of my family and most of the hubby's family. Because they forget their education was paid for by taxes, their colleges were subsidized by taxes so their education was affordable, their student loans were backed by the government (as well as that of their doctor, teacher, lawyer, architect that designed their home, engineer that designed their car), that their air is relatively unpolluted, the water generally drinkable (compared to the pre-regulation industrial era), that there are actually animals to go out an hunt (thanks to conservation programs and refuges) and fish (we'd have killed them all otherwise), that there are dams and levees to protect towns and farmland (and if they were better funded they could be better maintained) and when a levee gets breached in some farmers field to relieve pressure on a levee near a town he gets compensation for the loss of his crops (grew up on the Mississippi, this is pretty common), that airplane s don't ordinarily crash into your home (thanks FAA), that there are roads and bridges and tunnels that allow you to drive form coast to coast and top to bottom, relatively cheaply, that gas for the car is effing cheap, that if you lose your job because the economy tanks you can still afford to eat, that your employer is responsible for the safety of their employees on the job and required to take on the financial burden of protecting them from keeling over or getting cancer or losing their sight or hearing from that chemical they have to use on whatever it is they work on, that they have a 40 hour work week at a (still shirty, but better than a dollar a day) not-quite livable wage, that their medication is covered mostly by insurance and that their disease has been extensively studied by researcher paid for with federal grants to offer better treatment modalities, that...I could go on forever.

Yeah, it's not perfect. There are inefficiencies in every system. If we funded some of these programs better we could manage those inefficiencies more effectively. Generally speaking, the compassionate and environmentally sound solution is actually the cheapest solution in the long run. The truth is that if these people actually lived in the small government utopia they've Been brainwashed into, they would be the girl in the Triangle fire, the guy whose hand went into the sausage in Upton Sinclair's The Jungle, the family living in the one room tenement apartment without water or electricity, the kid working in the mill or the mine underfed and overexposed to cotton or coal dust and beaten if they needed a break during their 14 hour work day, the small businessman squeezed out by corporate monopolies, the housewife that has to figure out how to feed, clothe, and house her kids after her husband kills himself when the banks crash and aren't insured or when he gets a disease that no one has been able to study for lack of funding and it wouldn't matter because the treatment was only affordable for the rich.

We used to live in this country. It was terrible. It's moniker is the Glided Age...gold on top and nothing but shit underneath. I'll be damned if we go back that direction because half my family and my in-laws and probably 3/4s of the American people never bothered to pay attention in history class or never bothered to read The Jungle, or anything by Ida Tarbell, or Faulkner, Steinbeck, or the transcripts from the Sadler report (which admittedly is British, but was still happening in the US).

We tried that once, and it lead to the Great Depression. We tried going back to that one disregulation at a time and it put us in the largest almost depression since the Great Depression. But 'Murika has bought the kool-aid of doubling down on the Know Nothing movement and every other regressive idea we've already rejected because not only did it not work, it flat out tanked this country. Not on my watch, not for my children. I did not spend 6 years of my life serving this country to watch these people take it apart and throw it away because they value their ignorance, mistaking it for "freedom".

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Make America great - for everybody!

The lie that has been sold about reducing the size of government is that, if spending in the areas Thalassa pointed out is cut, that money will go into the pockets of the average worker - who has been watching his/her income relative to inflation drop beyond levels seen in living memory.

The reality is, though, cut those things and, in addition to the social devestation Thalassa has already pointed out, that money will go directly into the pockets of those who are already so glutted with cash that they function as if they were governments themselves.



There is not just despair based on illusion, the despair people feel is reality based. The solutions that are being grasped at by so many people, however, are based on carefully constructed and manipulated illusions. Grind the middle class against the lower class, let them battle it out, and the ultimate winner will always be the rich buggers.

But look at how other nations have managed problems, observe the results, and the reality is clear. Notice the reason this is called "The Nordic Model":

[DragonsFriend]

Re: Make America great - for everybody!

Socialism - by what ever name you call it fails over time. Using another person's wages to pay others to live only works if more people are working than not. Once people see that they can live w2ithout working and that they have been working to support others they stop working. One of the first colonies in the fledgling USA (before it was the USA) failed miserably because they used a socialist approach. When the leader finally said that if you didn't work you didn't eat that the colony was successful.
Democracy doesn't work either because as soon as people find that they can vote to give themselves stuff they quickly run out of money. The USA is 19 trillion dollars in debt because they don't pay off their loans. They just pay the interest and some day the USA won't have the money to pay the interest on the loans. We pay more interest on the loans than we spend on the military!

I have been "lucky". I had insurance when I was out of work for a year due to an accident. I had insurance when I was disabled eleven years ago. I was "lucky" because I planned ahead for emergencies. I learned that putting money into a savings account that I would rather have spent on better food, nicer clothes, and the other things that I wanted but didn't NEED. Luck had little to do with my success. Working two jobs and putting what little I could away "just in case" while supporting a family of four is what made the difference. Managing my money and repairing things instead of buying new is where I got my "luck".

I always thought that personal responsibility was something that pagans held dear. It seems that most would rather have someone else take responsibility for their lives than do it themselves.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Make America great - for everybody!

Golly, you are just the absolute schnitz! A genius! Better than everybody who has ever worked their ass off and fallen despite it!

I wish I could be so ignorant of the experiences of others, and of myself!

[DragonsFriend]

Re: Make America great - for everybody!

I'm just a guy who needed to be able to protect my family and provide for them. My kids are doing the same things that I did. They are working to support their families and trying to protect what they need to survive.

[ThePaganMafia]

Re: Make America great - for everybody!

Pretty sure the ancient Pagans, in small Tribal society's, would be very close to what we call Socialism today. So....

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Make America great - for everybody!

Socialism - by what ever name you call it fails over time. Using another person's wages to pay others to live only works if more people are working than not. Once people see that they can live w2ithout working and that they have been working to support others they stop working. One of the first colonies in the fledgling USA (before it was the USA) failed miserably because they used a socialist approach. When the leader finally said that if you didn't work you didn't eat that the colony was successful.
Democracy doesn't work either because as soon as people find that they can vote to give themselves stuff they quickly run out of money. The USA is 19 trillion dollars in debt because they don't pay off their loans. They just pay the interest and some day the USA won't have the money to pay the interest on the loans. We pay more interest on the loans than we spend on the military!

I have been "lucky". I had insurance when I was out of work for a year due to an accident. I had insurance when I was disabled eleven years ago. I was "lucky" because I planned ahead for emergencies. I learned that putting money into a savings account that I would rather have spent on better food, nicer clothes, and the other things that I wanted but didn't NEED. Luck had little to do with my success. Working two jobs and putting what little I could away "just in case" while supporting a family of four is what made the difference. Managing my money and repairing things instead of buying new is where I got my "luck".

I always thought that personal responsibility was something that pagans held dear. It seems that most would rather have someone else take responsibility for their lives than do it themselves.

Well I'd love to see you try managing to work at two jobs where I live. Here you're lucky to get one... and even then the pay is appalling.

Where the luck comes in is in the availability of work and opportunity. And no, you don't 'make' an opportunity. You might take advantage of it, but it has to be there in the first place. You had spare money to save - good for you. You did the right thing. Now... let me just take away that extra, so there is no way you can tighten your belt any more, and see you save.

[iris]

Re: Make America great - for everybody!

It's funny how you percieve freedom. I agree that saving for a rainy day is always a good idea. Even with all my safety nets, I save up my own money, because I'm extremely lucky to have the option.
You say you have your money because you've worked two jobs and saved, and not bought the things you didn't need. Good for you. But not everyone are capable of doing that, through no fault of their own. I wouldn't even want to if I could... I don't want to own my own house and have two cars. I'd much rather make sure I have enough for if the fridge breaks, or we'd like a vacation... I never have to worry about education - I got mine for free and so will any child I might some day have, if I seriously get sick I will get the treatment I need - no matter how much money I have, if I'm unable to support myself (I do have an at times crippling anxiety) I don't have to worry about it. I can spend my resources how I want to, and I don't have to worry too much about what tomorrow brings. I can focus on enjoying my life now, because I know the safety net is there. I hope I will never need it, but it's there. That is freedom to me. I prefer that over owning my own house any day.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Make America great - for everybody!

It's funny how you percieve freedom. I agree that saving for a rainy day is always a good idea. Even with all my safety nets, I save up my own money, because I'm extremely lucky to have the option.
You say you have your money because you've worked two jobs and saved, and not bought the things you didn't need. Good for you. But not everyone are capable of doing that, through no fault of their own. I wouldn't even want to if I could... I don't want to own my own house and have two cars. I'd much rather make sure I have enough for if the fridge breaks, or we'd like a vacation... I never have to worry about education - I got mine for free and so will any child I might some day have, if I seriously get sick I will get the treatment I need - no matter how much money I have, if I'm unable to support myself (I do have an at times crippling anxiety) I don't have to worry about it. I can spend my resources how I want to, and I don't have to worry too much about what tomorrow brings. I can focus on enjoying my life now, because I know the safety net is there. I hope I will never need it, but it's there. That is freedom to me. I prefer that over owning my own house any day.

I think values comes into play a lot here. I think we just don't value material goods or money as much as some Americans do, but we do value things like free time, family time, job security, and our security in general. I know that personally, I'd rather go on holiday to a new country every year than own multiple cars, and I'd rather have peace of mind knowing I could send my children to university without a hitch (no matter what happened in our lives) than have a huge house. It seems a lot of Americans value those things as well, and that's why they're fighting for them.

As an example, pretty much everyone I know found this Cadillac commercial really offensive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNzXze5Yza8

It was just the presumption that we're somehow hard done by and that we don't work as hard because we don't have Cadillacs. My facebook feed collectively got wound up screaming about how they work for their month off in August and that's what they want anyway. Another huge chunk of people rolled their eyes, because this is Germany and loads of people have Mercedes, Audi and BMW cars, which are way better than Cadillacs anyway. That, and Germany actually tops the world in productivity per hour worked. We might work fewer hours on average, but we get more done during those hours.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Make America great - for everybody!

...I wouldn't even want to if I could... I don't want to own my own house and have two cars. I'd much rather make sure I have enough for if the fridge breaks, or we'd like a vacation... I never have to worry about education - I got mine for free and so will any child I might some day have, if I seriously get sick I will get the treatment I need - no matter how much money I have, if I'm unable to support myself (I do have an at times crippling anxiety) I don't have to worry about it. I can spend my resources how I want to, and I don't have to worry too much about what tomorrow brings. I can focus on enjoying my life now, because I know the safety net is there. I hope I will never need it, but it's there...

But...

But...

Iris, are you actually saying that you wouldn't trade all that in a second if offered the oportunity to be really, really free to work like a slave without a safety net???

[iris]

Re: Make America great - for everybody!

I think values comes into play a lot here. I think we just don't value material goods or money as much as some Americans do, but we do value things like free time, family time, job security, and our security in general. I know that personally, I'd rather go on holiday to a new country every year than own multiple cars, and I'd rather have peace of mind knowing I could send my children to university without a hitch (no matter what happened in our lives) than have a huge house. It seems a lot of Americans value those things as well, and that's why they're fighting for them.

As an example, pretty much everyone I know found this Cadillac commercial really offensive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNzXze5Yza8

It was just the presumption that we're somehow hard done by and that we don't work as hard because we don't have Cadillacs. My facebook feed collectively got wound up screaming about how they work for their month off in August and that's what they want anyway. Another huge chunk of people rolled their eyes, because this is Germany and loads of people have Mercedes, Audi and BMW cars, which are way better than Cadillacs anyway. That, and Germany actually tops the world in productivity per hour worked. We might work fewer hours on average, but we get more done during those hours.

I think you're absolutely right. Values play a big part in it. It's a personal thing. It may to some extent reflect on cultural differences, but we have people who value stuff highly too. Lots of them. We have the big mansions with the garages full of cars, and those people worked hard to earn it. But they're probably a bit low on family life, or something else that matters more to someone else. It's just about priorities. I have friends in both ends of the spectre.

hah. That commercial is a bit offensive to me too. Like you can't be ambitious and driven and still prioritize other aspects of life over work or material goods. But hey, they're trying to sell. Saying 'have you considdered taking more time off and buying a cheaper car?' Probably isn't the best stragetgy.


And Corbin.... no. I take it all back. Being a slave sounds AWESOME!

[anunitu]

Re: Make America great - for everybody!

Here are your shackles Madam....enjoy!!