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arming the unwashed masses: good or bad? split from Pakistan thread

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    arming the unwashed masses: good or bad? split from Pakistan thread

    The whole carrying guns at the Repub convention...nothing to go wrong there...

    It only takes one crazy with a gun to go way off the planet....
    MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

    all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
    NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
    don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




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    my new page here,let me know what you think.


    nothing but the shadow of what was

    witchvox
    http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

    #2
    Re: Trying the Pakistan thing again...

    ISIS would rather behead people than die bombing them. (jk)

    I think allowing guns at major conventions is a great idea. Mass killers choose "gun free zones" because they can be the only person with a gun. Nobody would want to try to use a gun when there is a population where more than 50% of the people are carrying there own guns! If they are stupid enough to try they will be stopped before the second or third shot. That means no mass killing since to be a mass killing there has to be at least three innocents killed.
    The Dragon sees infinity and those it touches are forced to feel the reality of it.
    I am his student and his partner. He is my guide and an ominous friend.

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Trying the Pakistan thing again...

      Originally posted by DragonsFriend View Post
      ISIS would rather behead people than die bombing them. (jk)

      I think allowing guns at major conventions is a great idea. Mass killers choose "gun free zones" because they can be the only person with a gun. Nobody would want to try to use a gun when there is a population where more than 50% of the people are carrying there own guns! If they are stupid enough to try they will be stopped before the second or third shot. That means no mass killing since to be a mass killing there has to be at least three innocents killed.
      That's a possibility. The other is a rousing case of

      blue on blue on blue on blue on blue on blue on blue....

      when an uncoordinated mob with imperfect information starts reacting to gunfire

      I prefer your scenario but I'm somewhat skeptical of its odds.
      life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

      Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

      "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

      John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

      "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

      Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


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        #4
        Re: Trying the Pakistan thing again...

        A huge group of untrained people carrying guns because they feel the need to protect themselves...

        You don't even need a terrorist - all you need is ballon popping and they'll create their own bloodbath.

        And that's without including Trump's goons who have already shown a propensity for violence.
        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Trying the Pakistan thing again...

          It's funny that the scenario is unbelievable because it happens more often than mass murders. It is relatively easy to spot the bad guy with a gun and fairly easy to see the good guys shooting back. In a mall last year (I don't have the link - sorry) an active shooter saw a man with a gun and stopped shooting and turned his gun on himself. There is also the statistic that police hit their intended target less than 30% of the time while civilians hit their targets more than 70% of the time in actual shootings. In my experience being a member of a police range I would much rather have civilians protecting me with guns than police because generally (there are some very good shooters on police forces) cops are bad shots. I am not a perfect shot but I train more and use my gun more than most police do. I choose to carry and recognize the responsibility of doping so. I have only drawn my gun once in the 43 years that I have carried one and that was on an attacking animal. I did not have to use my gun.
          The Dragon sees infinity and those it touches are forced to feel the reality of it.
          I am his student and his partner. He is my guide and an ominous friend.

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Trying the Pakistan thing again...

            Originally posted by DragonsFriend View Post
            It's funny that the scenario is unbelievable because it happens more often than mass murders. It is relatively easy to spot the bad guy with a gun and fairly easy to see the good guys shooting back. In a mall last year (I don't have the link - sorry) an active shooter saw a man with a gun and stopped shooting and turned his gun on himself. There is also the statistic that police hit their intended target less than 30% of the time while civilians hit their targets more than 70% of the time in actual shootings. In my experience being a member of a police range I would much rather have civilians protecting me with guns than police because generally (there are some very good shooters on police forces) cops are bad shots. I am not a perfect shot but I train more and use my gun more than most police do. I choose to carry and recognize the responsibility of doping so. I have only drawn my gun once in the 43 years that I have carried one and that was on an attacking animal. I did not have to use my gun.
            Could you reference any examples where groups of excited armed people prevented a mass shooting?
            Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Trying the Pakistan thing again...

              The secret service put the kibosh on people carrying,so no go with the armed political nut jobs.
              MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

              all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
              NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
              don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




              sigpic

              my new page here,let me know what you think.


              nothing but the shadow of what was

              witchvox
              http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Trying the Pakistan thing again...

                First, people who carry concealed weapons are not prone to get excited about pulling their guns. It is not something we look forward to. There are multiple reports in every American Rifleman magazine each month of local papers published events where people use their own legal weapons to protect themselves and others. Most of the time no shots are even fired but the criminal recognizing an armed person either gives up or leaves. There was one a couple of months ago where a man entered a large barber shop with about twenty or so people in the place and started shooting. One of the patron drew his own gun and fired once disabling the armed attacker. The sheriff told the reporter that this man saved lives and that this could have easily been another "mass shooting" had it not been for the guy with the concealed weapon. There was a similar event in Seattle in last months edition where a person with a concealed pistol permit stopped an active shooter after one innocent was injured. nobody but the criminal died. I don't keep the copies of these magazines unless there is an article that has special interest to me so I can't give you details. These events happen daily across the nation and are rarely in the news because they are not deemed news worthy. I also tend to think that if more people knew how often guns were used by normal people to stop or prevent crimes it would be impossible to further restrict the right to own and carry a gun in this country.
                The Dragon sees infinity and those it touches are forced to feel the reality of it.
                I am his student and his partner. He is my guide and an ominous friend.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Trying the Pakistan thing again...

                  Originally posted by DragonsFriend View Post
                  I train more and use my gun more than most police do.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Trying the Pakistan thing again...

                    Originally posted by DragonsFriend View Post
                    First, people who carry concealed weapons are not prone to get excited about pulling their guns. It is not something we look forward to. There are multiple reports in every American Rifleman magazine each month of local papers published events where people use their own legal weapons to protect themselves and others. Most of the time no shots are even fired but the criminal recognizing an armed person either gives up or leaves. There was one a couple of months ago where a man entered a large barber shop with about twenty or so people in the place and started shooting. One of the patron drew his own gun and fired once disabling the armed attacker. The sheriff told the reporter that this man saved lives and that this could have easily been another "mass shooting" had it not been for the guy with the concealed weapon. There was a similar event in Seattle in last months edition where a person with a concealed pistol permit stopped an active shooter after one innocent was injured. nobody but the criminal died. I don't keep the copies of these magazines unless there is an article that has special interest to me so I can't give you details. These events happen daily across the nation and are rarely in the news because they are not deemed news worthy. I also tend to think that if more people knew how often guns were used by normal people to stop or prevent crimes it would be impossible to further restrict the right to own and carry a gun in this country.
                    Armed crowds of wannabe heroes? Each situation you have mentioned involves one shooter, and one armed person.

                    I'm looking for the mob scenes that more accurately reflect a political national convention, especially something in which participants have previously shown a willingness to deal with opposition via violence.

                    I can't find comparable situations in the US, outside of movies. In other countries, where excited groups carrying weapons is more common, the results look frightening.

                    Also, in reviewing the psychological literature on the behavior of crowds in panic situations, I am inclined to stand by my statement.
                    Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Trying the Pakistan thing again...

                      Yep the beast or heard mind is not something I personally would want to provide weapons to. You have enough incidents of multiple cops shooting across and hitting friendly cops much less in a crowd situation.
                      I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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                        #12
                        Re: Trying the Pakistan thing again...

                        Unless you have some training or experience with real people and real guns in an active shooter situation you are fantasizing.
                        I know people who train and carry their guns just as I do. None of us are heros and none of us are looking forward to the day we can kill another human. We train to protect ourselves and those we love. Your fantasy about half a crowd pulling out their guns and blasting away is nothing like reality.
                        As far as being a "badass" I am too old to be considered a threat to anyone. If I had to save your life by stopping a shooter, I would. Would you be able to do the same for someone else? Maybe you could reason with him or her to stop killing innocent people.
                        The Dragon sees infinity and those it touches are forced to feel the reality of it.
                        I am his student and his partner. He is my guide and an ominous friend.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Trying the Pakistan thing again...

                          Going hunting or to the range is not the same as training to use a weapon in a hostile environment.
                          Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                            #14
                            Re: Trying the Pakistan thing again...

                            Originally posted by DragonsFriend View Post
                            Unless you have some training or experience with real people and real guns in an active shooter situation you are fantasizing.
                            I know people who train and carry their guns just as I do. None of us are heros and none of us are looking forward to the day we can kill another human. We train to protect ourselves and those we love. Your fantasy about half a crowd pulling out their guns and blasting away is nothing like reality.
                            I'm too busy right now to respond fully - the response is complicated, but I have to ask 2 questions - 1) can you speak for 100% of those who carry guns? 2) are you at all familiar with chaos theory and how it applies in this particular case?

                            If your answer to the first question is "yes," it is you who are engaging in fantasy. If you answer "no" to the second question, you do not have information essential to forming a sound opinion on this. If you answer "no" to the first question and "yes" to the second, then you are being disingenuous at best in expressing such an opinion, and lying at worst.

                            The logic is inescapable. With even moderate knowledge of the situation, and a working understanding of the concepts necessary to answer this kind of question, a person would have to be either an imbecile or maniac to recommend that guns be brought into such a situation.

                            I will return when I have time to further explain, if necessary.
                            Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Trying the Pakistan thing again...

                              You have the same odds of dying by a gun(not even homicide related) as you do dieing by an automobile accident. 1 in 4 people will die of heart disease. You got a better chance of saving your family if you tell them to put down the chicken.

                              We understand your intense need to act self-righteous towards everybody but you're actual effectiveness in protecting anyone is about zero. And I am not even in the anti-gun crowd. Don't sit here and talk about how your training at the gun range will prepare you for real life combat situations against mass shooters because that's not how it works. Soldiers, who are well trained, fuck up all the time. Don't sit there and tell me a bunch of civilians will be able to safely react and respond to a surprise armed threat in the middle of a crowd.

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