Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Learning the art

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Learning the art

    I am sure there is no "1 secret trick that shamans don't want you to know!", but is there some advice for practical learning? What sort of ritual or actions help facilitate connection? My best hope would be to find and meet a genuine Sami or Siberian practitioner but, well let's face it unless there is one living in my area (highly unlikely), this is not going to happen. The way I see it is a little like how I see my woodworking. You can only do it if you care about it. If you don't care for a spiritual path, then you can never connect to it, like doing a university degree to become a doctor when you really don't care about the career to dedicate time learning it. Furthermore, books will always be the lowest form of education in something so practical, with tutoring at the top and trial and error somewhere in the middle, based on your tutoring / books balance.

    I genuinely and earnestly believe in the ongoing existence of ancestors, although I am uncertain on who constitutes ancestors, and how far back it goes. I don't think I will ever be 100% certain. However I also believe in the genius loci, the spirit of a place, and am also an animist and also believe that not all spirits are lovely and friendly, some may abuse those who are too open, either passively by leading them away from where they want to go, or with real intent to harm. As such I want to ensure the bad doors remain locked and that I can safely ask for the good doors to be opened. I cannot get tutoring in such a path, but I need some sort of direction.

    I think a part of what holds me back is my rather arrogant Christian history, scoffing at certain pagans because of New Age influences incorporating into their practice the things I wish I did, but I don't want to be seen as "being like them". I don't know if it's because their behaviour is comical to me, or because they go further than I would. I'm a non-worshiping person. I venerate and thank, but I don't think I could worship anything.

    This is turning into a blog post, so I'll try and wrap it up with a question: how did you go from "that sounds right to me" to "I understand what I believe personally, through experience"?
    I'm not one to ever pray for mercy
    Or to wish on pennies in the fountain or the shrine
    But that day you know I left my money
    And I thought of you only
    All that copper glowing fine

  • #2
    Re: Learning the art

    I've not studied much in the ways of Shamanism, not the new Age aspects or the cultural or historical, but

    This is turning into a blog post, so I'll try and wrap it up with a question: how did you go from "that sounds right to me" to "I understand what I believe personally, through experience"?
    Research. Research and examine every aspect. Does it make sense to you? Why or why not? If it does, how can you adapt it into your practices. Do you understand the cultural aspects and historical aspects and how they do or do not apply to you?

    I'm sure someone will have a better answer soon.
    “I am Cat and I walk alone and all ways are the same to me.” ~Rudyard Kipling, The Cat Who Walks By Himself

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Learning the art

      Originally posted by faye_cat View Post
      I've not studied much in the ways of Shamanism, not the new Age aspects or the cultural or historical, but ... Research. Research and examine every aspect. Does it make sense to you? Why or why not? If it does, how can you adapt it into your practices. Do you understand the cultural aspects and historical aspects and how they do or do not apply to you?
      Well, there is no precedence of shamanic practice in pre-Christian Britain as far as I'm aware, so I'm not sure how much they apply to me culturally or historically.
      I'm not one to ever pray for mercy
      Or to wish on pennies in the fountain or the shrine
      But that day you know I left my money
      And I thought of you only
      All that copper glowing fine

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Learning the art

        Originally posted by Briton View Post
        Well, there is no precedence of shamanic practice in pre-Christian Britain as far as I'm aware, so I'm not sure how much they apply to me culturally or historically.
        Pre-Christian Britain I think the shamanic practitioner would be more recognized as an aspect of the Druid influence. I think it's Talisan (sp) that is recognized as both a druid and shamanic practitioner. Of course many of the stories of Merlin fall into the world walking and seeing aspects that many shamanic practitioners held that allowed them to connect to the spirit and magical realm to aid their people. Many of the Irish invasion hero's could be seen in that light when you think of the "Deaths" they have to go through and the spirits / gods / goddesses awakening them and teaching them.

        I think part of the problem is most seem to look to the Shaman of Siberian influence or the Medicine Person of Native American influence. Then change their focus even more to simply see the "Healer" as a shaman yet ignoring or never learning that the shamanic practitioner held many roles and functions within their peoples mythologies. The healer was only one segment of those who were seen as touched or chosen ones. Yet I do find it interesting that while so many look to those two groups they tend to ignore or omit the very core idea of having to die and suffer that is one of the keystones of being a shaman / medicine person.
        I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Learning the art

          Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
          Pre-Christian Britain I think the shamanic practitioner would be more recognized as an aspect of the Druid influence. I think it's Talisan (sp) that is recognized as both a druid and shamanic practitioner. Of course many of the stories of Merlin fall into the world walking and seeing aspects that many shamanic practitioners held that allowed them to connect to the spirit and magical realm to aid their people. Many of the Irish invasion hero's could be seen in that light when you think of the "Deaths" they have to go through and the spirits / gods / goddesses awakening them and teaching them.

          I think part of the problem is most seem to look to the Shaman of Siberian influence or the Medicine Person of Native American influence. Then change their focus even more to simply see the "Healer" as a shaman yet ignoring or never learning that the shamanic practitioner held many roles and functions within their peoples mythologies. The healer was only one segment of those who were seen as touched or chosen ones. Yet I do find it interesting that while so many look to those two groups they tend to ignore or omit the very core idea of having to die and suffer that is one of the keystones of being a shaman / medicine person.
          I am really interested pre-Iron Age, before the Druids, but I think we know even less about that than Druids, which is virtually nil.
          I'm not one to ever pray for mercy
          Or to wish on pennies in the fountain or the shrine
          But that day you know I left my money
          And I thought of you only
          All that copper glowing fine

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Learning the art

            Application of principles taught and looking back on how my life has changed for the better or evolved in some way that had to do with applications of principles taught. Experience, experimentation, retrospection, and introspection, basically.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Learning the art

              My 'most helpful advice for budding shamanists' has changed over the years, but it seems to have settled at this.... first of all, work out WHY. Why does shamanism draw you? What do you hope to gain from it? Why do you want to learn it? If you want to go traipsing around in the Otherworlds... why? Healing? Knowledge? Self growth? Power? Ego? To meet you teachers on their turf? Because the spirits told you to? Because you think it would be cool and fun?

              Shamanism is a loaded word nowdays and can mean a number of different things. It's also easy to look to shamanism when what you really want is 'Iron Age practices' or some other ancient practice that we have no knowledge of. People think it's old, it involved animal skins, bones, herbs and cave paintings so OBVIOUSLY it was shamanic. Not necessarily.

              So first work out 'why'. Then we can help you with the 'how'.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Learning the art

                The meeting on their turf point, and knowledge so that I can be a better custodian, which my line of work will make me, I want to be able to consider the forest or woodland, not as a crop, but as a mutual relationship. I think these days many people who are into animism or shamanic practices turn to veganism because they feel they cannot kill or allow an animal to be killed for their benefit. And yet when neolithic humans discovered farming, they didn't stop at plants. Equally, in fact more so, through proper management using trees for timber can be doing forests a greater favour than not using trees for timber, as we can reduce pollution. I see it as a mutual relationship, but I want to do it with the genius loci in mind. If a forest doesn't want to cooperate, I would want to know so it doesn't feel I'm raping it for resources, no matter how good my intentions are.

                I will add that I don't necessarily think people before me on this isle practiced shamanic ritual. We don't even have evidence of incense, although the form of grape pots is convincing we can't say for sure. The closest is some animal bones from the Palaeolithic which have been carved into spatulas very very similar to tools used in Siberia, whilst we also traded with Baltic states with elements of shamanic practices in the Bronze Age. However I acknowledge there may be no precedence of shamanic practice in Britain, regardless of animal depictions on walls, or carved bones, our anything.
                I'm not one to ever pray for mercy
                Or to wish on pennies in the fountain or the shrine
                But that day you know I left my money
                And I thought of you only
                All that copper glowing fine

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Learning the art

                  Originally posted by Briton View Post
                  The meeting on their turf point, and knowledge so that I can be a better custodian, which my line of work will make me, I want to be able to consider the forest or woodland, not as a crop, but as a mutual relationship. I think these days many people who are into animism or shamanic practices turn to veganism because they feel they cannot kill or allow an animal to be killed for their benefit. And yet when neolithic humans discovered farming, they didn't stop at plants. Equally, in fact more so, through proper management using trees for timber can be doing forests a greater favour than not using trees for timber, as we can reduce pollution. I see it as a mutual relationship, but I want to do it with the genius loci in mind. If a forest doesn't want to cooperate, I would want to know so it doesn't feel I'm raping it for resources, no matter how good my intentions are.
                  None of this actually requires shamanism, but it's a very common assumption amongst neopagans that it does. Shamanism is about communion with the spirits and the spirit world, and while the spirits of ThisWorld are included in that, it is possible to have a spiritual practice that focuses on the genus locii and other local spirits without any form of shamanic practice at all. You don't have to go very far to work with your local landspirits, and while trance journey could facilitate communication with them, you can do that with no journey skills whatsoever. I don't use my shamanic toolkit when I commune with my local landspirits... that connection is there all the time and was built through intention, focus and maintaining a ground that facilitates a two way relationship. You will find relatively few spirits in the Otherworlds who can help you connect with your genus loci... they have their own genus locii and local spirits. The spirits of ThisWorld are the ones you want.

                  Which is not to say that you can't have or seek a shamanic practice if this is your intention, just that you should have straight in your head what shamanism actually is and isn't. Modern pagan practices have bought the skills of spirit communication to the common people, so to speak. It's no longer a skill that is reserved for select individuals who serve as a go between for the spirits and their community. I think it's important for us to remember that when we set out on this path. This is also why the question of 'why' is so important... because it's very easy to get caught up in the theory of it all, only to find that at the end of the day, you didn't need half of what you thought you needed.

                  Briton, from my observations of your posts here at PF, I get the feeling that you are inclined to overthink things before you act. You ask what rituals and actions facilitate connection, and state that it's the genus loci and forest you wish to connect with? You don't need to research anything for that. You don't need our advice. You need to walk out into the forest, find a quiet spot and sit. Watch. Listen. Feel. Take a notebook and make notes if it helps occupy that part of your brain that needs theoretical stuff. But go out into the forest. You can't connect with it it you don't visit it. Sitting at home with books and webpages will not help you. What plants grow there? What animals make their homes there? What insects? What do the trees tell you? If you sit out there and close your eyes, how does the forest make you feel? What does it say to you? How does that forest feel different to the next one? Where does the forest spirit end and another landwight take over? How do they interact with each other? What other landscape features are there? Rivers, creeks, mountains? Immerse yourself in the forest and you will find your connection. But it takes time and patience. Landwights do not move as fast as we do, they do not have the same sense of time. You can't rush them, you can't make appointments and you can't hold them to a schedule. You have to go to them, plant your feet into the dirt, let the ants crawl over you, feel the breeze on your skin, listen to the whisper of the trees and FEEL.

                  Originally posted by Briton View Post
                  I will add that I don't necessarily think people before me on this isle practiced shamanic ritual. We don't even have evidence of incense, although the form of grape pots is convincing we can't say for sure. The closest is some animal bones from the Palaeolithic which have been carved into spatulas very very similar to tools used in Siberia, whilst we also traded with Baltic states with elements of shamanic practices in the Bronze Age. However I acknowledge there may be no precedence of shamanic practice in Britain, regardless of animal depictions on walls, or carved bones, our anything.
                  The ancestors are the best source of knowledge about pre-historic practices, assuming you even need to know about pre-historic practices. Yes, anthropology and academia will tell you some, but it's largely educated guesswork anyway. Academic research is important for context and to engender a sensitivity to cultural practices. But at the end of the day, what the ancient peoples of your area did is irrelevant to your practice. If you want to serve the land and it's spirits, you do what the spirits want you to do. I work with hides, pelts, feathers and bones not because the ancient peoples of my area did it, or because it's 'shamanic' to do so, but because those things are the physical manifestations of the animal spirits that I work with. I have a wooden staff because a tool made from my local tree helps to connect me to my local landspirit. Even my drum (which is not at all traditional to the ancient peoples of Australia) is made from kangaroo hide and Australian wood and connects me to my genus loci while she helps me journey into the Otherworlds. My spiritual tools have been made and collected by intuition and prompting by the spirits I work with, not collated as part of a checklist from a book. Connect with your spirits and let them guide you. That's how you turn your intention into an experiential everyday practice.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Learning the art

                    I am not a shamanist (though I use some shamanic techniques), but I am very much a person that literally worships their bioregion--the flora, the fauna, the landscape, the history and culture.

                    I've had to move a couple of times, so I've effectively "changed religions" any time we've moved to a new area. I'm actually in the process of that right now. It means making new connections, imprinting a new landscape, etc. If you are interested, I can go into more detail on the specifics of what I do and how I do it.

                    I use the ideas, language, symbols, and ritual forms (adapted of course) of existing (mostly Greek, Roman, and Etruscan) paganisms, with some other inclusions (mostly water deities---I find they tend to travel well) as they "feel right" for the place or the occasion. For the most part I consider anything descended from PIE cultures as "fair game"; IMO, all the deities people see as "real" are culturally evolved (and revised and edited and added on to) projections of the same "originator" gods (think of Divinity like Pando, and gods as the individual trees). I generally "graft" (going with the tree analogy again) those ideas that "match" my bioregion best into my own, private religion. I'm not adverse to "pop deities"--no superheroes here, but I do include two deities based in fiction and several "invented" (or "newly recognized", if you prefer) deities*.



                    *If its worshipped/revered, I consider it a deity, even if its technically a really minor one at best, or something else all together. I go by function--if you prayed to your dining room table every day, that makes it a god.
                    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

                    “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
                    ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

                    "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
                    ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

                    "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

                    Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                    sigpic

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Learning the art

                      Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                      None of this actually requires shamanism, but it's a very common assumption amongst neopagans that it does. Shamanism is about communion with the spirits and the spirit world, and while the spirits of ThisWorld are included in that, it is possible to have a spiritual practice that focuses on the genus locii and other local spirits without any form of shamanic practice at all. You don't have to go very far to work with your local landspirits, and while trance journey could facilitate communication with them, you can do that with no journey skills whatsoever. I don't use my shamanic toolkit when I commune with my local landspirits... that connection is there all the time and was built through intention, focus and maintaining a ground that facilitates a two way relationship. You will find relatively few spirits in the Otherworlds who can help you connect with your genus loci... they have their own genus locii and local spirits. The spirits of ThisWorld are the ones you want.
                      Thanks for this. I was of the impression that spirits were inherently of the "otherworld", that the physical natural stuff is one thing and the spirits were another. I don't know if you know what I mean, but evidently you're talking about a division of spirits, if you could confirm this, this would be great.

                      Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                      Which is not to say that you can't have or seek a shamanic practice if this is your intention, just that you should have straight in your head what shamanism actually is and isn't. Modern pagan practices have bought the skills of spirit communication to the common people, so to speak. It's no longer a skill that is reserved for select individuals who serve as a go between for the spirits and their community. I think it's important for us to remember that when we set out on this path. This is also why the question of 'why' is so important... because it's very easy to get caught up in the theory of it all, only to find that at the end of the day, you didn't need half of what you thought you needed.
                      Fair points all round. I would like to be able to commune with the ancestors, contact them directly. The why on this point, I have not really figured, to seek their wisdom? To know how to venerate them better, I guess. I don't really know why people try and contact the ancestors in the first place, but that shouldn't really affect my reasons.

                      Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                      Briton, from my observations of your posts here at PF, I get the feeling that you are inclined to overthink things before you act.
                      I know you only meant this as an observation, but in the past people have said the opposite, so I'm going to take this as a compliment that I've improved and matured as a person in ways I have intended.

                      Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                      You ask what rituals and actions facilitate connection, and state that it's the genus loci and forest you wish to connect with? You don't need to research anything for that. You don't need our advice. You need to walk out into the forest, find a quiet spot and sit. Watch. Listen. Feel. Take a notebook and make notes if it helps occupy that part of your brain that needs theoretical stuff. But go out into the forest. You can't connect with it it you don't visit it. Sitting at home with books and webpages will not help you. What plants grow there? What animals make their homes there? What insects? What do the trees tell you? If you sit out there and close your eyes, how does the forest make you feel? What does it say to you? How does that forest feel different to the next one? Where does the forest spirit end and another landwight take over? How do they interact with each other? What other landscape features are there? Rivers, creeks, mountains? Immerse yourself in the forest and you will find your connection. But it takes time and patience. Landwights do not move as fast as we do, they do not have the same sense of time. You can't rush them, you can't make appointments and you can't hold them to a schedule. You have to go to them, plant your feet into the dirt, let the ants crawl over you, feel the breeze on your skin, listen to the whisper of the trees and FEEL.
                      I actually bought a note pad for this very reason. I think, now that the days are getting warmer and longer, I can afford to sit out in them. There is a small woodland behind my parents' house which is rather featureless, really, it's by no means an ancient woodland. There is common land near me, which as far as I can tell has suffered from neglect (as many commons have) and I would like to connect to it. It is an SSSI with many incredibly ancient bogs so quite possibly areas of ancient woodland, I would need to look for ancient woodland indicators to be sure.

                      Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                      The ancestors are the best source of knowledge about pre-historic practices, assuming you even need to know about pre-historic practices. Yes, anthropology and academia will tell you some, but it's largely educated guesswork anyway. Academic research is important for context and to engender a sensitivity to cultural practices. But at the end of the day, what the ancient peoples of your area did is irrelevant to your practice. If you want to serve the land and it's spirits, you do what the spirits want you to do.
                      I'll be honest, this latter part never occurred to me. I guess that's symptomatic of the anthropocentric world I've been raised in. I guess I want to know out of curiosity, and interest. Although I would want to copy them de facto, my line of reasoning is that if it worked for them, it's a lead. Of course, I don't know whether or not it worked for them. That discovered decorated antler photographed in a book may well have been dumped on the very basis that it didn't work.

                      Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                      I work with hides, pelts, feathers and bones not because the ancient peoples of my area did it, or because it's 'shamanic' to do so, but because those things are the physical manifestations of the animal spirits that I work with. I have a wooden staff because a tool made from my local tree helps to connect me to my local landspirit. Even my drum (which is not at all traditional to the ancient peoples of Australia) is made from kangaroo hide and Australian wood and connects me to my genus loci while she helps me journey into the Otherworlds. My spiritual tools have been made and collected by intuition and prompting by the spirits I work with, not collated as part of a checklist from a book. Connect with your spirits and let them guide you. That's how you turn your intention into an experiential everyday practice.
                      Thanks for this. Would you say that your connection to the land spirits helped you connect with the ancestral spirits of the otherworld in some way? Or did your practice with one grow out of a totally different method?

                      I'm in the library doing college work right now (honest, I am!) but when I get home, I'll have a couple of hours before dark, so I will wrap up and go out. Can I also ask, and this is not for me to derive influence, but do you have a regular space(s) or site(s) you go to for what you do, or is it more or less different every time? Is it normal to be drawn to a certain spot? I have been drawn to a ring of holly trees, perfectly sized for sitting or kneeling in, near a hedge at the edge of a field but in woodland, and around the periphery of the holly ring grow mushrooms of a "certain variety", I'm not decided on whether or not I will use them, but they, along with another plant which only seems to grow in this patch, seem to make the site naturally special.
                      I'm not one to ever pray for mercy
                      Or to wish on pennies in the fountain or the shrine
                      But that day you know I left my money
                      And I thought of you only
                      All that copper glowing fine

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Learning the art

                        Originally posted by Briton View Post
                        The meeting on their turf point, and knowledge so that I can be a better custodian, which my line of work will make me, I want to be able to consider the forest or woodland, not as a crop, but as a mutual relationship.
                        That's not shamanism that's just simple knowledge of the land and life cycle. That's knowing when things awaken, when the the courtships occur, when the migrations happen, what things are seasonal, what things are yearly, all the physical events of the landscape. It's knowing the awakening sequences and knowing what the indicators are before things may actually be visible to the common person as it where.

                        I think these days many people who are into animism or shamanic practices turn to veganism because they feel they cannot kill or allow an animal to be killed for their benefit.
                        Truthfully I see more veganism in Wiccan type circles than in Shamanic / Animism circles. Especially in the aspect that for some pathways allies are consumed to interact with them. Yet allies are not just plants though many mythologies suggest plants are the beings that sided with humanity when the other beings decided to harm us for improper usage and respect towards them. Yet in my opinion I think it's knowing those mythologies and spirits behind them that enables the shamanic practitioner to call upon them.

                        And yet when neolithic humans discovered farming, they didn't stop at plants. Equally, in fact more so, through proper management using trees for timber can be doing forests a greater favour than not using trees for timber, as we can reduce pollution. I see it as a mutual relationship, but I want to do it with the genius loci in mind. If a forest doesn't want to cooperate, I would want to know so it doesn't feel I'm raping it for resources, no matter how good my intentions are.
                        Just my own perspective but you seem to be in that can't see the tree's because of the forest mode of seeing. A forest is not a singular thing or identity so it's highly unlikely anything you do will be for its benefit as a whole. That not even considering there will be individual spirits that hate you, some that will use you for their benefit only, some that will try to get you to side by them and some that won't want anything to do with you. Even then one day you might be welcomed then come the next day and your a threat and they try to drive you off. In so many ways all the positive and negative of human society.

                        I will add that I don't necessarily think people before me on this isle practiced shamanic ritual.
                        I do wonder what you think shamanic ritual is? Very few rituals had bells, whistles, regalia's, etc that one might look at and say that's shamanic in nature. Yet it could be shamanic in knowing when to hold them. So many times the shamanic aspect is unseen and takes place before many rituals, observations, etc occur.

                        We don't even have evidence of incense, although the form of grape pots is convincing we can't say for sure.
                        Incense? Why does a ritual have to have incense? Consider Native American's in the south west used White sage, along the northwest they used Hemlock, on the eastcoast they used cedar, All for purification and cleaning physically of the area prior to many ceremonies or rituals. Many of them used birds feathers to sweep the area and call upon the elements to wash away or drive away bad spirits. Notice I said bad not evil, for a spirit can be bad during certain points of the year and good at others. It's like eating a persimmon, when ripe its taste great but any other time its awful and will turn your mouth inside out.

                        The closest is some animal bones from the Palaeolithic which have been carved into spatulas very very similar to tools used in Siberia, whilst we also traded with Baltic states with elements of shamanic practices in the Bronze Age. However I acknowledge there may be no precedence of shamanic practice in Britain, regardless of animal depictions on walls, or carved bones, our anything.
                        Again I'd ask and wonder just what your calling shamanic practices? You seem to be bordering on the edge of equating totemism with shamanism. While totemism may be found within shamanism it's in and of itself is not shamanism. It's like animism and animatism both can be found in shamanic practices but again it doesn't make something shamanic just because it is there or isn't there. That not even touching upon animism in regards to each thing having an individual spirit or having a collective type spirit for the whole, a super spirit if you will. Nor does it really touch upon the individual mind versus a hive type mind that one in my opinion often encounters in nature and the spirit world.

                        I agree with Rae'ya in that you have to get out in nature, whether it be the fields, the forest, the waters or even the very cities we live in to discover and contact those local spirits or the greater spirits of place. But you can't presume that what you see today will be the same tomorrow any more than what you see in the deep forest will be the same for the spirits along a wind beaten coastline. Sometimes it's all about timing and knowing the clock cycle to know which spirits to go visiting when.
                        I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Learning the art

                          Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                          I am not a shamanist (though I use some shamanic techniques), but I am very much a person that literally worships their bioregion--the flora, the fauna, the landscape, the history and culture.

                          I've had to move a couple of times, so I've effectively "changed religions" any time we've moved to a new area. I'm actually in the process of that right now. It means making new connections, imprinting a new landscape, etc. If you are interested, I can go into more detail on the specifics of what I do and how I do it.
                          I would be interested to know, just to get some perspective. No man is an island, after all (is that an appropriate saying in this situation? I think so).

                          Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                          I use the ideas, language, symbols, and ritual forms (adapted of course) of existing (mostly Greek, Roman, and Etruscan) paganisms, with some other inclusions (mostly water deities---I find they tend to travel well) as they "feel right" for the place or the occasion. For the most part I consider anything descended from PIE cultures as "fair game"; IMO, all the deities people see as "real" are culturally evolved (and revised and edited and added on to) projections of the same "originator" gods (think of Divinity like Pando, and gods as the individual trees). I generally "graft" (going with the tree analogy again) those ideas that "match" my bioregion best into my own, private religion. I'm not adverse to "pop deities"--no superheroes here, but I do include two deities based in fiction and several "invented" (or "newly recognized", if you prefer) deities*.
                          That is an interesting approach, and one I would say takes experience to know when which deity applies to which environment?

                          Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                          *If its worshipped/revered, I consider it a deity, even if its technically a really minor one at best, or something else all together. I go by function--if you prayed to your dining room table every day, that makes it a god.
                          This is my definition. The category of deity is not mutually exclusive with anything, if you recognize a landwight, it's a landwight. If you worship the landwight, it is a landwight and a deity to you. I think the label "deity" is relative, in the sense that if something is worshiped, you can describe it as a deity even if you don't personally worship it, because someone else does, whilst the label "landwight" is not relative. It doesn't depend on anyone in order to fill this category, it is a nature, rather than a property, of the entity. Personally, I'm not sure if I would worship anything. I guess again this depends on your definition of worship. To me something is worshiped if it is inherently superior in its nature, whether spiritual or otherwise. You wouldn't worship a priest, (well, most don't) but you may worship the deity they purport to speak on behalf of. Likewise, I believe that all spiritual entities stem from the same essence, stuff you can't grab unlike dirt or wood, and as such we are all equal, so I would thank the genius loci which uses its power responsibly and wisely, or even if it used its power for my benefit in exchange for something in whatever (within reason) way I can, but I wouldn't worship it. It would be a mutually beneficial relationship, I don't necessarily need it (plenty of people go their whole lives without working with spirits) and it doesn't need​ me, but dependency isn't why I wish to do what I do, but to enrich.

                          - - - Updated - - -

                          Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
                          That's not shamanism that's just simple knowledge of the land and life cycle. That's knowing when things awaken, when the the courtships occur, when the migrations happen, what things are seasonal, what things are yearly, all the physical events of the landscape. It's knowing the awakening sequences and knowing what the indicators are before things may actually be visible to the common person as it where.
                          Isn't the process of contacting the spirits that dwell within shamanism?

                          Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
                          Truthfully I see more veganism in Wiccan type circles than in Shamanic / Animism circles. Especially in the aspect that for some pathways allies are consumed to interact with them. Yet allies are not just plants though many mythologies suggest plants are the beings that sided with humanity when the other beings decided to harm us for improper usage and respect towards them. Yet in my opinion I think it's knowing those mythologies and spirits behind them that enables the shamanic practitioner to call upon them.
                          Can you name some of the mythologies that talk about these things? I would like to learn about them.

                          Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
                          Just my own perspective but you seem to be in that can't see the tree's because of the forest mode of seeing. A forest is not a singular thing or identity so it's highly unlikely anything you do will be for its benefit as a whole.
                          I see what you mean, and I didn't mean to imply that it was entirely homogenous.

                          Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
                          That not even considering there will be individual spirits that hate you, some that will use you for their benefit only, some that will try to get you to side by them and some that won't want anything to do with you. Even then one day you might be welcomed then come the next day and your a threat and they try to drive you off. In so many ways all the positive and negative of human society.
                          Fair clarity, thank you. You're right, there is no reason why any single spirit would want to cooperate. How do you figure out which are just trying to use and when to recognize malicious intent? Is it purely trial and error?

                          Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
                          I do wonder what you think shamanic ritual is? Very few rituals had bells, whistles, regalia's, etc that one might look at and say that's shamanic in nature. Yet it could be shamanic in knowing when to hold them. So many times the shamanic aspect is unseen and takes place before many rituals, observations, etc occur.
                          Again, fair observation, thank you. That part you replied to was meant to demonstrate that I recognize that just because something is oft labelled as "being shamanic", doesn't mean it is. Though I guess I wasn't clear.

                          Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
                          Incense? Why does a ritual have to have incense? Consider Native American's in the south west used White sage, along the northwest they used Hemlock, on the eastcoast they used cedar, All for purification and cleaning physically of the area prior to many ceremonies or rituals. Many of them used birds feathers to sweep the area and call upon the elements to wash away or drive away bad spirits. Notice I said bad not evil, for a spirit can be bad during certain points of the year and good at others. It's like eating a persimmon, when ripe its taste great but any other time its awful and will turn your mouth inside out.
                          I was wrong to use the word "incense", I didn't realize it explicitly referred to burnt gums. Whatever the word you wish to use, I meant burnt organic materials such as woods or leaves as well as gums and resins, much like the sage leaves you mention. Again, I intended to suggest that I'm aware even facets associated superficially with shamanic practices are lacking. But of course, just because they didn't occur, as you suggest, that doesn't mean they didn't happen. They maybe just didn't use anything some times, or the stuff they did just isn't recognizable to us. Maybe those Neolithic orbs are? Who knows. I don't know what to think most of the time to be honest.

                          Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
                          Again I'd ask and wonder just what your calling shamanic practices? You seem to be bordering on the edge of equating totemism with shamanism. While totemism may be found within shamanism it's in and of itself is not shamanism. It's like animism and animatism both can be found in shamanic practices but again it doesn't make something shamanic just because it is there or isn't there. That not even touching upon animism in regards to each thing having an individual spirit or having a collective type spirit for the whole, a super spirit if you will. Nor does it really touch upon the individual mind versus a hive type mind that one in my opinion often encounters in nature and the spirit world.
                          I didn't mean to imply that I was equating totemism to shamanism, I wasn't even intending to describe totemism. I mentioned the animal cave paintings because there has been, in the past, speculation that these paintings had a ritual purpose, but that these speculations didn't stack up with the idea of ritual magic or attempts to convene with the spirits as they were inconsistent or too vague.

                          Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
                          I agree with Rae'ya in that you have to get out in nature, whether it be the fields, the forest, the waters or even the very cities we live in to discover and contact those local spirits or the greater spirits of place. But you can't presume that what you see today will be the same tomorrow any more than what you see in the deep forest will be the same for the spirits along a wind beaten coastline. Sometimes it's all about timing and knowing the clock cycle to know which spirits to go visiting when.
                          I intend to. So would you recommend going at all different times of day?

                          I feel like the conclusion to draw here is that practice with spirits is really a trial and error thing, and unless you know what you're looking for in the first place, you're basically going into a dark room waving a knife about. It's aimless and quite possibly harmful to both yourself and those you're trying to find.

                          I would like to know some of the reasons why people here try and contact the spirits either of this world (land spirits) or the other (the dead), if it's not too personal of course. I don't want to be trying to do anything for its own sake, but I guess I've realized I don't really have any good reason.
                          I'm not one to ever pray for mercy
                          Or to wish on pennies in the fountain or the shrine
                          But that day you know I left my money
                          And I thought of you only
                          All that copper glowing fine

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Learning the art

                            I would recommend that you work with a shaman to learn the practice. There is a sub-group of the "Eclectic Circle of Pagans" called the "Eclectic Circle of Shamanism" and the teacher there, who goes by "Randy Kerby" is a good friend and trained from early childhood as a Shaman. He might give you a better understanding of what it means to be a practicing shaman than you are getting here. He is attempting to teach his "trade" and is having some of the same challenges that I have had trying to teach, the magikal life, in the long distance setting. Tell him that you were sent by his neighbor "Rev. Paul" and he will welcome you as a student until you prove different to him. "Randy" was trained on the reservation and is likely to share some things that are "different" than you might imagine.

                            In any event, have an interesting journey and follow your own path.
                            The Dragon sees infinity and those it touches are forced to feel the reality of it.
                            I am his student and his partner. He is my guide and an ominous friend.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Learning the art

                              Originally posted by DragonsFriend View Post
                              I would recommend that you work with a shaman to learn the practice. There is a sub-group of the "Eclectic Circle of Pagans" called the "Eclectic Circle of Shamanism" and the teacher there, who goes by "Randy Kerby" is a good friend and trained from early childhood as a Shaman. He might give you a better understanding of what it means to be a practicing shaman than you are getting here. He is attempting to teach his "trade" and is having some of the same challenges that I have had trying to teach, the magikal life, in the long distance setting. Tell him that you were sent by his neighbor "Rev. Paul" and he will welcome you as a student until you prove different to him. "Randy" was trained on the reservation and is likely to share some things that are "different" than you might imagine.

                              In any event, have an interesting journey and follow your own path.
                              Thanks for the advice!
                              I'm not one to ever pray for mercy
                              Or to wish on pennies in the fountain or the shrine
                              But that day you know I left my money
                              And I thought of you only
                              All that copper glowing fine

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X