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Thread: Legislating bad science in Utah

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    sea witch thalassa's Avatar
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    Legislating bad science in Utah

    This is absolutely, completely and utterly NOT A DEBATE about abortion.

    It’s a head-scratcher as a doctor, because we don’t even know how to follow this law,” said Dr Anne Davis, the medical director for Physicians for Reproductive Health and a practicing abortion provider. “The law says we have to give anesthesia to the fetus because the fetus might feel pain. OK, how do you address a concern that is purely theoretical?”
    The problem stems from the law’s very premise, which is that fetuses are capable of feeling pain after 20 weeks of development. It is a common anti-abortion assertion, but there are serious questions about the science.

    Major, mainstream medical associations such as the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists and the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists in the UK say claims that fetuses can feel pain that early in a pregnancy are medically unfounded. Comprehensive reviews of medical research have shown that the earliest a fetus develops the pathways for perceiving pain is probably 29 weeks after a woman’s last period, according to the ACOG. Only a few outlier studies suggest that fetuses are capable of pain any earlier.
    As the result, there are no widely used and tested protocols for giving a fetus anesthesia.

    “There’s just no guidance,” said Dr Sarah Imershein, an OB-GYN from Washington DC speaking on behalf of ACOG. “If in fact they’re asking for the woman to be totally put to sleep for a procedure, I don’t even know if the fetus is ‘asleep’, so to speak … I’m genuinely not sure what the law is telling doctors they need to do. What I can tell you is that the people who wrote the law have no idea how medicine develops its methods for protecting patient safety.”

    Davis agreed. “You can’t drill down on this law, because how would l even guess if I’ve addressed an artificial problem?” she said. “There’s no protocol to tell us how to do that, no studies to tell us how to do that, no guidelines, no particular techniques.”

    The difficulties of fulfilling the law are a part of why reproductive rights groups see the law as more outrageous than almost any other in the nation. (The measure requires providers to “administer an anesthetic or analgesic to eliminate or alleviate organic pain to the unborn child”.) Davis notes that many laws require doctors to give patients information, designed to dissuade them from having an abortion, which most mainstream medical groups find false. For example, five states require abortion providers to warn patients of a link – which is unproven – between breast cancer and abortion.

    But reading something to someone is one thing, said Davis. “It’s another thing entirely to change the way you practice medicine, and introduce a risk with no benefit, because of a state mandate.” The law makes an exception if the physician attests that the anesthesia or analgesic would harm the woman. But Davis said that giving a patient more anesthesia than they require – which the law seems to demand – is always risky.

    “Any administration of any anesthesia, whether it be general, local or sedation, requires a patient-doctor relationship and a shared decision based on a discussion of the risks, benefits and medical indications in a given situation,” said Dr Ted Yaghmour, the chair of obstetric anesthesia for the American Society of Anesthesiologists. “This procedure would not be like anything else. Anything that would be more risky to the woman without any benefit is a very dangerous thing to do.”

    State senator Curt Bramble, the law’s author, works as an accountant.

    (source)
    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

    “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
    ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

    "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
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    "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

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    The Gaze of the Abyss B. de Corbin's Avatar
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    Re: Legislating bad science in Utah

    Yup - too weird for words...

    Politicos who know nothing about education also make education laws.

    Maybe ignorant people in gooberment who don't know enough to know what they don't know, and chose imbecilic advisors who also know nothing, then sell the whole mess to ignorant voters is to blame for silly little snaffus like this?
    Those who have suffered understand suffering and therefore extend their hand.

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    sea witch thalassa's Avatar
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    Re: Legislating bad science in Utah

    Quote Originally Posted by B. de Corbin View Post
    Yup - too weird for words...

    Politicos who know nothing about education also make education laws.

    Maybe ignorant people in gooberment who don't know enough to know what they don't know, and chose imbecilic advisors who also know nothing, then sell the whole mess to ignorant voters is to blame for silly little snaffus like this?
    Absolutely.





    Maybe legislators should be called up like jury duty. Science legislators make science regulations, education legislators make education regulations, etc. You get picked by lotto, and a panel of experts choose the most qualified.
    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

    “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
    ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

    "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
    ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

    "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

    Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible

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    Re: Legislating bad science in Utah

    Those who make the laws rarely understand what they are doing. At first glance it seems only right to provide pain relief to an unborn "child" prior to killing it BUT the science behind it isn't supportive. Lawmakers often respond to faulty logic and most people tend to follow along. (it works with gun control, why not abortion?)

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    Re: Legislating bad science in Utah

    One would think if said fetus is below the age that it has brain activity, at the least, it couldn't register pain....
    “You must be shapeless, formless, like water. When you pour water in a cup, it becomes the cup. When you pour water in a bottle, it becomes the bottle. When you pour water in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Water can drip and it can crash. Become like water my friend.” -- Bruce Lee

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    Re: Legislating bad science in Utah

    Quote Originally Posted by habbalah View Post
    One would think if said fetus is below the age that it has brain activity, at the least, it couldn't register pain....
    IF one would think in the first place. It is an emotional response without the thought process involved.

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    Re: Legislating bad science in Utah

    Maybe give the 'baby' a big fat dose of 'anesthesia' and boop, it DED. Then suck it out or whatever it is they do now a days.
    Satan is my spirit animal

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    sea witch thalassa's Avatar
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    Re: Legislating bad science in Utah

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    Maybe give the 'baby' a big fat dose of 'anesthesia' and boop, it DED. Then suck it out or whatever it is they do now a days.
    Problem is that it passes to momma...


    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsFriend View Post
    IF one would think in the first place. It is an emotional response without the thought process involved.
    "Pain" is both a physiological response to neurological stimulation and trauma and a mental response that can be completely or partially independent from neurological stimulation and trauma.
    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

    “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
    ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

    "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
    ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

    "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

    Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible

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    Re: Legislating bad science in Utah

    Quote Originally Posted by B. de Corbin View Post
    Yup - too weird for words...

    Politicos who know nothing about education also make education laws.

    Maybe ignorant people in gooberment who don't know enough to know what they don't know, and chose imbecilic advisors who also know nothing, then sell the whole mess to ignorant voters is to blame for silly little snaffus like this?
    Totally off topic but this made me think of this

    Armageddon (1998)

    Ronald Quincy: I know the president's chief scientific advisor, we were at MIT together. And, in a situation like this, you-you really don't wanna take the advice from a man who got a C- in astrophysics. The president's advisors are, um... wrong... and I'm right.
    I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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