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Religious certainty vs. religious exploration

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  • Religious certainty vs. religious exploration

    Broadly speaking - I have seen people divide into two general poles:

    Those who (at one pole) are anti-dogma, who seem to believe that a fixed set of rules, ideas, beliefs, etc. are antithetical to true spiritual development, and, therefore one must explore and experiment to achieve true spiritual development.

    The other pole consists of those who are anti-"cafeteria-style" religion, who seem to think that a "take what is right and leave the rest" approach is an easy way out of the discipline and self sacrifice required for true spiritual development.

    What are your thoughts on this?
    Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.


  • #2
    Re: Religious certainty vs. religious exploration

    It's really all cafeteria style , but the dogmatic are only sampling fewer dishes.
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    Can you hear me, Major Tom? I think I love you.

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    • #3
      Re: Religious certainty vs. religious exploration

      In all honesty? I'm sorta a fundamentalist when it comes to my Satanism. I tend to side eye when people pick and choose in their religion. I feel as if they truly believe that their beliefs and practices are THE WORD of their deity, then when you pick and choose, you are telling me just exactly how much you really deep down believe in that deity as being THE WORD.

      Now this is just in an academic sense. I already believe your religion is false, so it doesn't matter if you follow it 100% or pick and choose. So I pretty much just stay silent about that.

      (and when I say false, I know some may get upset. I don't mean to be insulting. I don't think less of any of you because my beliefs are probably in the same boat as yours. It's just the most accurate word I can think of).
      Satan is my spirit animal

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      • #4
        Re: Religious certainty vs. religious exploration

        I pick and choose my religion, because I don't believe religion comes from deities.
        “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

        “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
        ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

        "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
        ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

        "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

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        • #5
          Re: Religious certainty vs. religious exploration

          I, myself, am a utilitarian. What works, works, what doesn't doesn't - so I pick & choose.

          There is no implied judgement on others in that statement. Different people have different goals and values, and different natures. What works for me may not work for any other randomly selected person.
          Last edited by B. de Corbin; 10 Jun 2016, 18:49.
          Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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          • #6
            Re: Religious certainty vs. religious exploration

            I pick and choose, basically forming my own religion. Blindly following, and forcing others to follow is a major no no to me. It seems so obvious to me that all religion is changed through human interaction and interpretation, that I cannot believe that anyone is espousing the One True. It is a giant game of telephone. I doubt there is such a thing as One True Religion. I have to pick and choose based on consistency, observation, and the best of my critical thinking. This will be flawed, but it will be truest to me.

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            • #7
              Re: Religious certainty vs. religious exploration

              I have tried to understand my needs and especially those needs that are more "universal" in order to put a practice to my spirituality.
              I have an engineers mind (thanks dad) and a will to be understanding (thanks mom) of the greater picture. If you feed a stray cat you may in fact kill it because it will come to depend on you. People who have humming bird feeders are like this. The feed the humming birds until it is past time for them to migrate. They die because there is no food this late in the year for their migration. Even if the don't try to migrate the birds run out of food because the feeders will freeze and they starve to death. I told my wife, "if you want to feed the humming birds then plant the flowers they feed on. That way the birds will know when it is time to migrate.
              People have very different spiritualities but can practice the same religion if it caters to the most important parts of spirituality. If you try to follow a religion that doesn't fit you may find that your spirituality suffers.
              Last edited by DragonsFriend; 11 Jun 2016, 14:13.
              The Dragon sees infinity and those it touches are forced to feel the reality of it.
              I am his student and his partner. He is my guide and an ominous friend.

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              • #8
                Re: Religious certainty vs. religious exploration

                Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                What are your thoughts on this?
                My opinion is that you should follow the truth no matter what. So it has less to do with these two different concepts and more to do with following what's right. I mean if you're following or believing in something false, does it really matter if you take all of it or just pick parts of it? This is why I believe the bigger question here is, is what I'm following true or not.
                Do they not, then, ponder about the Qur‘an? Had it been from someone other than Allah, they would have found in it much discrepancy. [4:82]

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                • #9
                  Re: Religious certainty vs. religious exploration

                  Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                  The other pole consists of those who are anti-"cafeteria-style" religion, who seem to think that a "take what is right and leave the rest" approach is an easy way out of the discipline and self sacrifice required for true spiritual development.

                  What are your thoughts on this?
                  This is assuming that people who form their own path, like me, have no spiritual discipline and make no self-sacrifice. Speaking only for myself, "leave the rest" means not adopting things that I feel are either wrong or unsuited for me, not because it's taking the "lazy way out". I still have my own morality and things that I have given up because they're appropriate to my spiritual path, and will ultimately make me a better person.

                  Does that make my approach better than having a structured dogma? Only for myself. But something that has always bothered me about people who do have a strict religious code that they're supposed to follow is that they pick and choose anyway. Granted, my largest experience with this is mostly with Christians, and picking and choosing which parts of the Bible are and are not still to be followed, but I also know of Muslims who drink and have sex before marriage, Wiccans that violate "harm none", and so on.

                  Which is better? Depends on what works for you. But personally, I couldn't be part of a religion that had stipulations that I had to deliberately ignore because they either contradicted my own morality, or I think are asinine in this day and age.
                  “You must be shapeless, formless, like water. When you pour water in a cup, it becomes the cup. When you pour water in a bottle, it becomes the bottle. When you pour water in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Water can drip and it can crash. Become like water my friend.” -- Bruce Lee

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                  • #10
                    Re: Religious certainty vs. religious exploration

                    I am kinda of the belief that if my spiritual side becomes way to much work,then it is missing the whole point of spiritual freedom,love and understanding,and you know spiritual life should mainly be FUN!!!!
                    MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                    all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                    NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                    don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




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                    • #11
                      Re: Religious certainty vs. religious exploration

                      Originally posted by Dumuzi View Post
                      My opinion is that you should follow the truth no matter what. So it has less to do with these two different concepts and more to do with following what's right. I mean if you're following or believing in something false, does it really matter if you take all of it or just pick parts of it? This is why I believe the bigger question here is, is what I'm following true or not.
                      Bolded mine.

                      I think that is the crux of many issues when it comes to religion / spirituality. Just what is the truth. For that matter what is religion and what is spirituality? That and the struggle that arises when you consider that to walk in your truth is really a struggle of beliefs for what is right and correct has to be challenged when others claim to be walking n their truth but it is opposed to your own truths. Especially in the capacity if they are correct then how can yours be correct. We say tolerance and acceptance of diversity yet to be truthful how can you be tolerant and accepting of what your own spirituality says is wrong. That is if you are walking in so called truth and belief.

                      I personally think religion is normally structured for it is the dogma and bones if you will that guide us. In that capacity we tend to separate the mystical from the mundane I think. All of it being a gateway that directs us to the "Truth". Yet like any mapping system some of us need detailed and highly defined maps to follow with mile markers, sites of interest, way stations, etc as we progress. Because we are so focused upon the trip I believe we tend to look down upon those who appear to be missing something along the way. Of course that appearance is all speculative and judgemental as we observe and compare / contrast how we travel. When you don't follow the dogma and structure you can't arrive at the same destination or conclusion of those who do follow it arrive at. What at some point becomes tradition I suppose and a commonalty of experience's and revelations that unite a group.

                      Yet spirituality or the mystical experience I think is where it becomes a certainty or a truth for us as individuals. The culmination of experiences and beliefs that are reached when we've walked the pathway or dogma of our practice and arrive at the conclusion or mystical. Yet being magical or mystical the commonalty of experience and method of revelations allows us to speak about it and have some similar discussion points as it where.

                      Is another's pathway right or wrong? Well to be honest if I am truthful and follow my beliefs and spiritual conclusions then the answer has to be yes, they are wrong. But that defeats the current pagan concept of all are right and we have to be both tolerant and accepting of diversity and belief. Which to me in the end means we have to be willing to walk in a lie. For in truth they can't be right if it makes us wrong, and we can't be wrong if it makes them right or our conclusions and beliefs are wrong and fallible.

                      But I suppose that is where the idea of religious certainty versus religious exploration really becomes a test of is your belief / spiritual system static, quasi static or quasi dynamic or dynamic?
                      I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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                      • #12
                        Re: Religious certainty vs. religious exploration

                        I struggle a little bit with this one, because I think that it's far too easy to get into the 'traditionalist vs eclectic' debate without seeing the complex layers underneath it. If I'm being completely honest, I'm very much eclectic and 'pick and choose' in my own spirituality. But like Habbalah, it's not about an easy route. It's about digging through all the tradition that comes with a religion that you are investigating and finding that some of those things really don't agree with your worldview. So what is a person to do when they discover that? Follow the dogma anyway, when they don't truly believe it all? That seems dishonest to me. Ditch the whole thing and move on to the next thing, hoping that one day something will be exactly perfect? I'm far too cynical to believe that I'll ever find a 'perfect' existing match for my worldview (NT comes as close as I've ever found, but it in itself is a recently created 'religion', created by people like me). So I piece things together from different sources to create a cohesive personal spiritual path that works for me while being sensitive to the original sources of said pieces.

                        My issue is that I see a lot of people picking and choosing on a very superficial level. Some of them are newbies that just are just starting out, and haven't had a chance to get to the deeper understanding of why they are choosing/discarding certain things. But some of them are long term practitioners (it's very common in neo-Wicca and New Age circles from what I've seen). This I don't like, particularly when they promote it to newbies. I actually am not against picking-and-choosing... I'm against doing it just 'because'. Because why? It doesn't 'feel right'? That in itself is a tricky one, because maybe that's the only way that person knows how to explain the fact that they've done the research and have come to this conclusion. But maybe it's what they've been taught to say through the social conditioning of eclectic New Agers telling them to do whatever they like as long as it 'feels right'. And that's how we end up with plastic shamans and the ignorant but innocent people who inadvertently perpetuate culturally appropriative or insulting practices.

                        I generally really dislike the 'because it feels right' phrase... but that's because it doesn't actually tell me anything about the person, their practice or their understanding of their practice. Now if Thalassa or MonSno came over to me and said 'I do this because it feels right'... I've seen enough of their eloquent and detailed posts about their spirituality to safely assume that this was not a superficial decision, or that if it was, it's got enough foundation under it to stand up in a close examination. But if someone I've never met (including the online forum version of 'met'... you all know what I mean ) says it... it makes me not want to take them seriously. WHY does it 'just feel right'? Why does that other thing NOT feel right? How do you pick and choose in a manner that is respectful to the places you're picking and choosing from?

                        And on the flip side of that, religiously certain people who follow dogma rarely actually follow dogma down to the letter with no exceptions. Which I actually think is perfectly okay. I don't mind it when my Christian friends don't do certain things that they're supposed to do (or do things they're not supposed to do), because there's usually a reason or it's usually something that is clearly not relevant to their worldview. However, I DO mind it when people who purport to follow dogma (but actually pick and choose) denigrate people who pick and choose. Because it's okay for them to pick and choose, but not for the rest of us? I equally dislike it when people who clearly pick and choose denigrate other people who pick in choose... which is why I walk such a fine line with this debate... I'm dangerously close to being one of those people myself.

                        I think it's the layers underneath the debate that's important, because it's not quite as simple as dogma vs pick'n'mix.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Religious certainty vs. religious exploration

                          Think about this in the Christian path,eclectic is why today we have Methodist,Baptist,and all the other evolved parts of Christianity. Seems very common in Abrahamic paths..reformed Jews,Orthodox Jews..you see my point I think. Spiritual things grow,and change(some lock into Dogma)..and everyone argues what is truth.
                          Truth in the spiritual aspect In my mind it what fits YOU,because when you really come down to where the rubber meets the road,it is the person and their connected life with their beliefs that integrate themselves with the spiritual.
                          MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                          all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                          NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                          don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                          sigpic

                          my new page here,let me know what you think.


                          nothing but the shadow of what was

                          witchvox
                          http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

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                          • #14
                            Re: Religious certainty vs. religious exploration

                            I kinda have an off reason for feeling so strongly in favor of fundamentalism I guess. In my particular belief system, I get hate a lot from certain religious groups (cough cough you know which ones). And I feel that if I'm going to get crap and hate and bigotry from a believer, I guess I want that person to not be wishy washy in their reasons. I'd hate to find out I was aggravated by someone who doesn't have a firm grasp of the religion they are using as a reason for that aggravation. It would piss me the hell off.
                            Satan is my spirit animal

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                            • #15
                              Re: Religious certainty vs. religious exploration

                              Originally posted by Medusa View Post
                              I kinda have an off reason for feeling so strongly in favor of fundamentalism I guess. In my particular belief system, I get hate a lot from certain religious groups (cough cough you know which ones). And I feel that if I'm going to get crap and hate and bigotry from a believer, I guess I want that person to not be wishy washy in their reasons. I'd hate to find out I was aggravated by someone who doesn't have a firm grasp of the religion they are using as a reason for that aggravation. It would piss me the hell off.
                              I actually agree. And I'm cynical enough to think that this is actually the case for a lot of people... they discriminate against other beliefs but actually don't have a firm understanding of the 'why' behind their own, let alone anyone else's.

                              Sometimes I think the distinction is not so much 'religious certainty vs religious exploration' or 'dogma vs eclectic', but 'blind following vs understanding'. The implication of our discussions so far is that religious certainty is equal to following blindly no matter what, which isn't actually true in all cases. It's possible to be dogmatic and understand and truly grasp everything you believe and do. And it's possible to explore and be eclectic without actually understanding anything... a 'blindly following' sort of eclecticism is not uncommon in paganism.

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