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Religious certainty vs. religious exploration

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  • #16
    Re: Religious certainty vs. religious exploration

    The 'cafeteria' style religion is something my denomination is pretty intolerant of. I'd like to see a little more open-mindedness in this as there are many Christian denominations with conflicting views, but all believing they have the correct revelation.

    IMO, the benefits of following a tradition to the T is that there is a framework from which to work within for people who are learning the skill of exploration.
    Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
    My issue is that I see a lot of people picking and choosing on a very superficial level. Some of them are newbies that just are just starting out, and haven't had a chance to get to the deeper understanding of why they are choosing/discarding certain things.
    This is a problem because if someone is going to discard a teaching because it doesn't feel right or good, then there's a chance some of the benefit of practice is lost. In matters of self-discipline, sometimes an outside source is required to ensure coherence. It may not be til well after the fact that the reward is shown. If there wasn't already an experience or framework there to let you know the pay-off is worth it, would you still make the choice to follow through? Isn't it interesting that self-discipline has come up twice. I wonder if that's a reflection on Western culture.

    Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post

    I personally think religion is normally structured for it is the dogma and bones if you will that guide us. In that capacity we tend to separate the mystical from the mundane I think. All of it being a gateway that directs us to the "Truth". Yet like any mapping system some of us need detailed and highly defined maps to follow with mile markers, sites of interest, way stations, etc as we progress.
    This is pretty much what I mean by 'framework'

    The other benefit of following a tradition is the sense of community and belonging. A sense of belonging can help a person to take risks and the community can provide a place for people to live out their faith inspired principles. Living out your principles is the way you find out what's true and what isn't.

    Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
    ...Which to me in the end means we have to be willing to walk in a lie.
    WOW. I loved this. Because this is where true/false becomes irrelevant. How does what you're living impact your life and the lives of those around you? Is it making so much of a difference that you would be totally fine to be wrong? There's more to any faith than being correct/incorrect.

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    • #17
      Re: Religious certainty vs. religious exploration

      Originally posted by Azvanna View Post
      WOW. I loved this. Because this is where true/false becomes irrelevant. How does what you're living impact your life and the lives of those around you? Is it making so much of a difference that you would be totally fine to be wrong? There's more to any faith than being correct/incorrect.
      This. Ten times over.

      I actually don't see religion about 'Truth' at all. Or even spirituality for that matter. Because I don't think that any of us actually know (or CAN know) the Truth. The closest we can get is what sings to our personal worldview. Is that Truth? Maybe a Personal Truth, but I think calling it that sets up a mental framework for other people's Personal Truths to be wrong, at least in your own mind.

      I think we can all learn from each other. I don't think there is 'truth' or 'wrong' in religion... it's all just us trying to make sense of the world(s) and what our place within it(them) is.

      And if I'm wrong... well that's okay. Because being wrong means that I have something to learn and a place to grow into.

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      • #18
        Re: Religious certainty vs. religious exploration

        My guide to right and wrong is "Does this make you a better person?"

        Now that's a pretty subjective question because what I call "a better person" may not be the same as what someone else calls "a better person," and I'm semi-OK with that because different people are in different circumstances and have different histories so what they need to be better is going to be different.

        So my rule for determining "better" is that it can't use circular reasoning - "even though it seems that I am becoming a worse oerson, I am becoming a better person by doing this because the teaching I am following says this is what a better person is."

        That and "practice painful self honesty." The easiest one to lie to is always ourself because we always want to believe that we are perfect.
        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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        • #19
          Re: Religious certainty vs. religious exploration

          When speaking about religion there is no truth. There is faith, understanding, principal, myth and belief but there is no truth. That is a statement with absolutes which is always controversial but in my studies I have found very little truth in religion and even the bits of truth are shrouded in myth and (mis) understanding.
          It is easy for me to separate my religion from the science of the universe. The science explains reality as we understand it today while religion has myth to explain why things are the way they are today. Science explains how things work and the physical side of life while religion deals with the spiritual side of life.
          You can explore religion and spirituality in many ways but finding truth in religion is rarely successful.
          The Dragon sees infinity and those it touches are forced to feel the reality of it.
          I am his student and his partner. He is my guide and an ominous friend.

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          • #20
            Re: Religious certainty vs. religious exploration

            If I study a beautiful sunset,it may install within my deeper self a sense of the divine,but as you said,not truth. Truth is and always will be a very personal level of consciousness and understanding,and may never mesh with others sense of truth. My truth sustains me,and for my life and connection to the divine is enough for me. Truth and happiness are always ones own personal vision of the heaven you search after and you hope for after death.
            MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

            all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
            NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
            don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




            sigpic

            my new page here,let me know what you think.


            nothing but the shadow of what was

            witchvox
            http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

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            • #21
              Re: Religious certainty vs. religious exploration

              Originally posted by DragonsFriend View Post
              When speaking about religion there is no truth.,,
              You mean, of course, in your opinion, or can you prove it?
              Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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              • #22
                Re: Religious certainty vs. religious exploration

                I suppose I should define "truth" as I use the word:
                Truth; an immutable fact that has always been, is presently and will always remain true.
                Facts can change. Beliefs can change. "Truth" cannot change. Facts can be true but if they have changed or will change then they are not truth.

                I hope that helps you better understand why I say there is little truth in religion.
                The Dragon sees infinity and those it touches are forced to feel the reality of it.
                I am his student and his partner. He is my guide and an ominous friend.

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                • #23
                  Re: Religious certainty vs. religious exploration

                  Originally posted by DragonsFriend View Post
                  I suppose I should define "truth" as I use the word:
                  Truth; an immutable fact that has always been, is presently and will always remain true.
                  Facts can change. Beliefs can change. "Truth" cannot change. Facts can be true but if they have changed or will change then they are not truth.

                  I hope that helps you better understand why I say there is little truth in religion.
                  You actually said "no truth," which would be a religious truth, which would falsify itself.

                  Yes, now with the clarification that you meant "little truth" I better understand.

                  Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Religious certainty vs. religious exploration

                    Honestly with everything in the news right now, It's more about religious uncertainty. People get desperate and scared when they think they understand something that is clearly incorrect. Then they get pissy. And well you know the rest.
                    Satan is my spirit animal

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                    • #25
                      Re: Religious certainty vs. religious exploration

                      Well, the central tenet to my personal faith is this:

                      when in doubt, pray
                      when in prayer, doubt

                      (I stole that stuff from a UU ad campaign years ago.

                      So...I practice a faith that embraces doubt, uncertainty, and the search for meaning. To me, religion is not a set of rules on what to for or say or believe in the attempt to please god/s---it's a language (spoken and unspoken)...or perhaps a medium (definition meant as analogous to art media--ceramics, oils, etc) by which we experience life and ourselves create experience. Religion is simply another type of experience, another layer to a multifaceted reality.

                      Think about an MMORPG, let's go with WoW...it's an ephermal experience of things that exist but don't exist. The experiences are real, the happen, they create actual relationships and changes for people. But Azaroth isn't actually a physical place, there are no Night Elf Druids, etc.

                      Religion is the original virtual reality, no computer needed. It's experiences are real--people feel them, they create changeling their brains that are measurable, etc. Whether or not the ideas are "true" (a patently more false word never existed) it's deities concrete, the experience is still real.
                      “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

                      “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
                      ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

                      "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
                      ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

                      "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

                      Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                      • #26
                        Re: Religious certainty vs. religious exploration

                        My beliefs are of use to me. Once a specific belief/system/technique is no longer useful to me, I discard it. I'm always in quest for wisdom. If I'm a Satanist it's because it's the system that best allows me to grow spiritually and materially.

                        Also, some demon spoke to me. That was cool as hell (pun). So I tried it again.

                        But if one day Satanism stops being the frame I need to advance, I shall leave it behind. Progress is my top priority, not coherence. The only faith I have is faith in myself, and my choices, and the wisdom to question my own reasoning.

                        Check out my blog! The Daily Satanist

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                        • #27
                          Re: Religious certainty vs. religious exploration

                          hmmm,so not a republican then?(read into that what you will)
                          MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                          all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                          NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                          don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                          sigpic

                          my new page here,let me know what you think.


                          nothing but the shadow of what was

                          witchvox
                          http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

                          Comment

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