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    Born to it vs. converting

    Sometimes the idea of a "lineage" comes up in pagan discussions, and is, at times, lauded as being better or more real than a conversion.

    Here is an interesting article dealing with the issue. Although it deals specifically with converts to Buddhism and those born into Buddhism, the idea behind it can be extrapolated to other belief systems as well:

    An Observation of a Buddhist American

    From the article:

    And

    This explains why I never bothered to teach "religion" to my children, but encouraged them to explore, and think, and discover on their own.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Amedment: I am not in any way suggesting that teaching children a religion is wrong, but teaching custom without meaning (if that is done) does not create understanding.
    Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.


    #2
    Re: Born to it vs. converting

    From some of the people I know that try to incorporate Hindu beliefs or their gods / goddesses they run into a thick wall of you have to be born Indian to follow it. Even then it's not only a matter of inside versus outside but also caste system and how you are seen in relationship to things.

    From a shamanic aspect it's also pretty well established in many groups that you have to be born into a family or group and chosen by the spirits. One doesn't choose to become a shamanic like practitioner one is selected to become one.

    Have to admit though in many ways its a combination of racial / ethnic versus converting to something. You can't because your the wrong gender, ethnicity, etc so can't become a member of _________.
    I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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      #3
      Re: Born to it vs. converting

      This reminds me of the problems of the temple with the tigers that has recently come to light too..

      That any group is corruptible
      Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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        #4
        Re: Born to it vs. converting

        My thinking is that a set of beliefs that moves from a point of origin to a new location in a different culture or cultural mileu is bound to undergo changes. I'm not at all sure that that is a form of debasement - it seems more like a matter of cultural evolution.

        - - - Updated - - -

        Originally posted by thalassa View Post
        This reminds me of the problems of the temple with the tigers that has recently come to light too..

        That any group is corruptible
        Yeah. Buddhists do not get a free ride on corruption charges, or for bad behavior. The attacks on Muslims is another good example.

        I think that twisted thinking become more likely when there is a state-approved religion, or a majority making claims to truth.
        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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          #5
          Re: Born to it vs. converting

          Complacency probably plays a role in both.

          When things are done because they are done and not because they are actively chosen and affirmed...

          The former promotes tolerance for corruption and abuse and allows for things like Warren Jeffs in the FLDS movement.
          Last edited by thalassa; 12 Jun 2016, 07:51.
          Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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            #6
            Re: Born to it vs. converting

            Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
            My thinking is that a set of beliefs that moves from a point of origin to a new location in a different culture or cultural mileu is bound to undergo changes. I'm not at all sure that that is a form of debasement - it seems more like a matter of cultural evolution. ..
            BOlded mine

            I think that is part of the issue though most often it's not cultural evolution. Figure just how often something is supposedly subject to the cultural evolution statement when the culture it was taken from did not change it. Which goes back to the argument of who owns a peoples religion / spirituality? Sort of the argument change from within is evolution change forced or manipulated from without, is that still evolution? To those inside the fishbowl probably not, to those outside of it forcing the change they claim it is. Who is right and who is wrong or are they both right and wrong at the same time?
            I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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              #7
              Re: Born to it vs. converting

              Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
              BOlded mine

              I think that is part of the issue though most often it's not cultural evolution. Figure just how often something is supposedly subject to the cultural evolution statement when the culture it was taken from did not change it. Which goes back to the argument of who owns a peoples religion / spirituality? Sort of the argument change from within is evolution change forced or manipulated from without, is that still evolution? To those inside the fishbowl probably not, to those outside of it forcing the change they claim it is. Who is right and who is wrong or are they both right and wrong at the same time?

              It is cultural evolution of the culture it is brought to, if not of the culture it is taken from. The original culture need not change (is force used?) but it may choose to (is change accepted?).

              Who owns a religion is an interesting question. The answer may well depend on whether one believes that a religion is revealed or discovered. I'm not sure there is a solid answer - it is highly depended on the subjective veiws of those involved.

              From my perspective, I would say that a set of beliefs belongs to whoever decides to use it. Others might call this "cultural theft." To each it's own. Non-objective reality is going to be subjective.

              For fun:



              Last edited by B. de Corbin; 12 Jun 2016, 08:04.
              Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                #8
                Re: Born to it vs. converting

                I th think a big problem is that people assume whenever the word evolution is in play that is something progressive, leading to some higher state or apex. That's simply not true, regardless of type of evolution. Evolution is ultimately random, though I would support that it generally produces change that increases complexity and diversity rather than decreases it.
                Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                  #9
                  Re: Born to it vs. converting

                  Yes - evolution is adaptation. Tapeworms are just as evolved as humans, although tapeworms have lost the ability to sef-regulate their bodies, which might be construed as devolution, if not that it has worked as an adaptation.
                  Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                    #10
                    Re: Born to it vs. converting

                    We are all converted. I mean, the moment you decide, or accept, or realise "ok, this is the path I'm following", you usually just at least began to be self aware. So it comes a bit after birth.

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                      #11
                      Re: Born to it vs. converting

                      I really made my mind up while still a fetus...It might have had to do with my Mother listening to Bing Crosby to damn much..I was planning my revenge for when I could make my escape.

                      - - - Updated - - -

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                        #12
                        Re: Born to it vs. converting

                        Originally posted by SeanRave View Post
                        We are all converted. I mean, the moment you decide, or accept, or realise "ok, this is the path I'm following", you usually just at least began to be self aware. So it comes a bit after birth.
                        I think it probably comes more than a bit after birth.

                        Kids develop in an interesting way, when you get to observe it up front. Its been my observation, that the deep thinking/analysis of self, etc that comes with actually consciously accepting a set of religious beliefs, etc, doesn't really happen until somewhere just before adolescence. In some kids, maybe sooner, in others...never.

                        Chickadee has always been somewhat interested in religion, and has always been encouraged to develop her own experiences and beliefs, though we still explain and practice what we believe to/with the kids as well. But, at 9, she is just now starting to reason out her own ideas in this regard. Sharkbait on the other hand, is somewhat interested in what other people do/say/believe, and (because of the ADHD, OCD, etc) tends to be more literal and regimented in his thinking...we've had some problems with exposure to very Christen peers, etc. that we haven't been able to answer with the same sort of ambiguity that Chickadee is comfortable with. For him, he needs more concrete, "No, they are wrong" sorts of answers...
                        Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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