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UK Votes to Leave the EU

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    #16
    Re: UK Votes to Leave the EU

    A shortage on labor is beneficial to workers. It means greater job security, higher wages, stronger unions... of course that means higher costs for consumers. Supply and demand, ​market forces.
    Last edited by Denarius; 24 Jun 2016, 00:19.
    Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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      #17
      Re: UK Votes to Leave the EU

      Originally posted by Denarius View Post
      Honestly, if this is a serious threat to the stability of the EU then it isn't stable at all and proves that they're right to leave.

      The UK will be fine, worst comes to worst they can always count on being the 51st state. The only thing that is seriously at risk is open migration, and I consider that a good thing.
      The UK was the second biggest member country of the of EU. So yes, it will destabilise things.

      As to becoming the 51st state... do you have any idea at all how much many people in the UK and the EU really loathe the US? I haven't seen that sort of sentiment since the 1960's.

      - - - Updated - - -

      Originally posted by Briton View Post

      I voted Remain, for the record. I've been away for a while but I'm surprised there has been no Brexit thread here. Watch religious tolerance in the UK decline. Tylluan, I've got to ask, where on earth do you think those grants that help pay for the spread, education and development of the Welsh language are going to come from, since they came from the EU before?

      I voted Remain, for the record. I've been away for a while but I'm surprised there has been no Brexit thread here. Watch religious tolerance in the UK decline. Sorry ignore that last bit about grants for Welsh if you saw it, I mixed up Jembru's position with Tylluan's. Unfortunately, Wales voted massively to leave, really shooting itself in the feet, but as it is full of elderly people, this is not very surprising.

      Wales' vote was totally incomprehensible. Talk about turkeys voting for Christmas... when I was going into the polling station to vote this woman started shouting 'Vote out! Vote out!' at me... never had anything like this happen before and when I reported it nobody was bothered - which is fair enough because she left then so she wasn't really intimidating people.

      There are going to be more problems here than anyone realised. When they say we are taking back control of our country, I mean, really? The question is where the control will go... because it sure as hell isn't coming into the hands of ordinary people!
      www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


      Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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        #18
        Re: UK Votes to Leave the EU

        Originally posted by Tylluan Penry View Post
        do you have any idea at all how much many people in the UK and the EU really loathe the US?
        I'm aware, but the feeling is absolutely not mutual. My point still stands, when it comes down to it America will have the UK's back even if the EU won't or can't.
        Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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          #19
          Re: UK Votes to Leave the EU

          Originally posted by Denarius View Post
          A shortage on labor is beneficial to workers. It means greater job security, higher wages, stronger unions... of course that means higher costs for consumers. Supply and demand, ​market forces.
          To an extent, but if the labour supply can't meet the demands in question, that becomes a problem.

          And as I said, it's kind of a myth that EU migrants are all Bulgarian construction workers and farmers. Citizens of EU 14 countries (Older members of the EU that are mostly made up of richer Western European countries like Germany and France) are still the largest group of migrants to the UK. The number of nationals from newer EU countries excluding Romanian and Bulgaria has actually *dropped* in recent years. A2 countries (Bulgaria and Romania) levels have risen, but still do not make up the bulk of migrants to the UK.

          This briefing provides an overview of EU migration to and from the UK, including immigration and emigration of EU migrants, registrations for a National Insurance number (NINos), employment, and other key statistics.


          Basically, most migrants from EU countries are professionals from other wealthier EU countries. Students also make up a good chunk of migrants to the EU and count in the statistics.

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            #20
            Re: UK Votes to Leave the EU

            I can't understand why people wanted to leave - but I can understand why they viewed the leave vote as a chance to make their voice heard. For too long, politics has been patronising and elitist (speaking for the UK here). A referendum is the nearest thing to democracy we've had in years. And I think the fact it was so close sow

            - - - Updated - - -

            I apologise in advance. My posts in this thread are bouncing all over the place. I think it's the sleeves on my cardigan... sorry.
            Last edited by Tylluan Penry; 24 Jun 2016, 01:19.
            www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


            Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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              #21
              Re: UK Votes to Leave the EU

              Originally posted by Denarius View Post

              From where I stand, the problems are coming from [I]Islamism. l:
              "Islamism" is about as far right as you can get.
              Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                #22
                Re: UK Votes to Leave the EU

                Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                "Islamism" is about as far right as you can get.
                Oh, I know. That wasn't a general left-right thing, that was in response to her specifically naming UKIP.
                Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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                  #23
                  Re: UK Votes to Leave the EU

                  I don't think Islamism is responsible for the rise of the far right. A lot of problems with immigrants have far more to do with the failures of European integration policies (Germany's was piss poor until very recently, and that goes for most EU countries) and general marginalization (racism has always been a problem here, and it still is). Inequality is far more responsible for the rise of the far right than immigration is. If you look at who votes for these parties, it tends to be the working class and the poor. That goes for UKIP as well as AfD. Here in Germany, AfD support is strongest in the former East. Those voters might -say- they don't want immigrants, but they don't care about anti-semitism or LGBT rights (those voters often hate those groups as well. They don't care about women's rights (AfD wants women back in the kitchen as much as the staunchest conservative Muslim does). When it comes down to it, they're just afraid, and a lot of that has to do with the fact that the cards have been stacked against them for a while (which is equally true for the poorest regions of the UK and former East Germany).

                  In the end, the lashing out that people from immigrant backgrounds have been doing lately and the lashing out from the far right is coming from the same place. Lack of economic opportunities, slipping education systems, and lack of political power.
                  Last edited by DanieMarie; 24 Jun 2016, 02:02.

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                    #24
                    Re: UK Votes to Leave the EU

                    "Antiestablishment libertarian right-wing National Populists." Apparently I was UKIP all along, and I never even knew.

                    Though, I do very much actually care about all those things you state the AfD doesn't. I do question that though, because I've been told that I believe such things as well. Then again, I'm not socially conservative (from an American perspective at least, is Germany much different?) or fiscally liberal. So I don't think that the AfD is directly comparable to the Alt-Right.

                    I also assume that it's a fairly stable party, as opposed to our more diverse political movement. Just going off what I could learn from skimming wikipedia and few articles, anyway.
                    Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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                      #25
                      Re: UK Votes to Leave the EU

                      You're right in that AfD is socially conservative and fiscally liberal. They support privatizing almost everything, and they love the concept of "traditional German values" (which seems to mean some combination of being Christian, despite the fact that a big chunk of its voters are atheists from the former East, women staying at home, and hating the LGBT community.)

                      They may be a stable party, but they're against everything I stand for. If they win an election, I'm evoking my Canadian citizenship and leaving. My boyfriend and I have actually discussed this. If AfD wins, we're gone. We don't agree with any of their platform or their vision for our country.

                      I don't know that you can really compare the right-wing libertarian movement in the US and far-right politics in Europe. European far-right parties are almost always socially conservative. If you look at their platforms, they tend to be skewed towards traditional gender roles and traditional social roles. From what I understand, your lot are different in that respect.
                      Last edited by DanieMarie; 24 Jun 2016, 03:01.

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                        #26
                        Re: UK Votes to Leave the EU

                        I personally, am libertarian, but I was comparing it to our Nationalist, Populist, antiestablishment, Trump supporting far right.

                        Which is all over the place when it comes to that, and can even be outright hostile to "family values" and the like. As I said, diverse. One of our loudest voices is a gay man. Though, he is rather socially conservative himself.

                        The important thing, left or right, is that they aren't social authoritarians. They can have whatever values they want, but enforcing those values on others is unacceptable.
                        Last edited by Denarius; 24 Jun 2016, 03:38.
                        Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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                          #27
                          Re: UK Votes to Leave the EU

                          I really don't have much to say about this--its not my vote. I didn't think it was a good idea--at best, I think GB can hope to maintain where it is now. At worst...well, Greece looks like a great place to move if it comes to that.



                          Originally posted by Denarius View Post
                          There are always people who want jobs, especially low skill ones. It's largely businesses who don't want to hire anyone local. Though, I am basing this off the US job market where we have to compete with illegals who are incredibly easy to exploit.
                          Erm...there are plenty of people that don't want "low skill" jobs...mostly because a great deal of "low skill" jobs actually take quite a bit of skill. And unless you have skill at that "low-skill" job, you can't make enough money to make the backbreaking work worth it. Some of our states have found this out the hard way (Georgia, Alabama).

                          Because here's a simple fact of economics:

                          Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                            #28
                            Re: UK Votes to Leave the EU

                            Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                            I really don't have much to say about this--its not my vote. I didn't think it was a good idea--at best, I think GB can hope to maintain where it is now. At worst...well, Greece looks like a great place to move if it comes to that.





                            Erm...there are plenty of people that don't want "low skill" jobs...mostly because a great deal of "low skill" jobs actually take quite a bit of skill. And unless you have skill at that "low-skill" job, you can't make enough money to make the backbreaking work worth it. Some of our states have found this out the hard way (Georgia, Alabama).

                            Because here's a simple fact of economics:
                            Solid point. It's also a huge reason why EU migrants from poorer countries end up in certain jobs. A lot of Polish workers ended up in trades and construction (which in many cases are not well-paid jobs on this side of the world, in comparison to Canada) not because they couldn't do anything else, but because the apprenticeship system in Poland for those careers is excellent. When building and development picked up in Poland, a lot of them went home to work in those fields closer to their families. A lot of Bulgarians and Romanians end up in farming because that's what they did at home. Bulgaria and Romania have much different agricultural systems to the rest of the EU (probably because they're newer members and it's less standardized), and people who work in those fields tend to know a lot about soil health, biodiversity, etc.

                            Not that everyone from those countries works in those fields, though. Most people I know from Poland, Romania and Bulgaria are either computer programmers or some sort of business managers. Or artists or academics.

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                              #29
                              Re: UK Votes to Leave the EU

                              Originally posted by thalassa View Post




                              Erm...there are plenty of people that don't want "low skill" jobs...mostly because a great deal of "low skill" jobs actually take quite a bit of skill. And unless you have skill at that "low-skill" job, you can't make enough money to make the backbreaking work worth it.
                              Yes, and what is considered low or high skill and why, is a whole different topic. The way things are prioritized aren't always for the greater good, but for the greater greed.

                              I don't know much about the UK's voting districts, but it's always interesting to see which socioeconomic groups vote for what.
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                              Can you hear me, Major Tom? I think I love you.

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                                #30
                                Re: UK Votes to Leave the EU

                                Originally posted by Hawkfeathers View Post
                                Yes, and what is considered low or high skill and why, is a whole different topic. The way things are prioritized aren't always for the greater good, but for the greater greed.

                                I don't know much about the UK's voting districts, but it's always interesting to see which socioeconomic groups vote for what.
                                Strangely, many of the poorest areas voted to leave. And this was a wholly predictable result:

                                Unbelievable.
                                www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                                Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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