UK Votes to Leave the EU

[thalassa]

Re: UK Votes to Leave the EU

Even in the aftermath, I still think people are overreacting. The doomsday scenarios they're describing seem extremely unlikely, especially in light of the fact we already had special concessions within the EU to begin with. Only time will tell now of course, but everyone needs me to be right on this.

Yeah, but if Scotland does successfully push for independence this time (and decide to join the EU--obviously a way down the line) as a result leaves, and Irish unification happens, what then? Can England support itself alone? I've taken British history and Irish history (I had a really cute history professor from N. Ireland--two semesters of his accent was worth his tests), but it was years ago (before the EU), so I know very little of your current political and economic situation, other than in generalities.



How long was it between them deciding to vote on this and the vote itself?

[Jembru]

Re: UK Votes to Leave the EU

Yeah, but if Scotland does successfully push for independence this time (and decide to join the EU--obviously a way down the line) as a result leaves, and Irish unification happens, what then? Can England support itself alone? I've taken British history and Irish history (I had a really cute history professor from N. Ireland--two semesters of his accent was worth his tests), but it was years ago (before the EU), so I know very little of your current political and economic situation, other than in generalities.

How long was it between them deciding to vote on this and the vote itself?

You probably still know far more than your average Englishman (I can't speak for the rest of the UK but from the outside they appear better informed).

The official announcement was sometime in February but we knew it was coming much earlier than that. Cameron promised a referendum on EU membership way back in his election campaign, but attempted to avoid a leave vote by renegotiating our conditions with the EU. This was largely because the EU is planning on an even closer union which means they will set more laws that all members have to abide by rather than allowing sovereignty to go to the elected government of its member states. The other big issue of course, being the immediate entitlement of migrants to full UK benefits. As one of the most generous EU countries in terms of welfare payments this understandably made us attractive so that movement into the UK from Europe out stripped movement out. So he wanted to be able to set a staged system where entitlement to benefits reflected an individuals contribution to the economy, as well as prevent workers from claiming child benefit for children not residing in the UK. Personally I thought the deal he got was fairly reasonable, but clearly not reasonable enough or we wouldn't be here now.

As for Scotland. I admit this is very worrying and I don't have any guesses. I do believe that Scotland both has the right to, and actually should get independence. After all they voted to stay in a UK that was part of the EU. Looking at how they voted on Thursday, dragging them along with us is completely unfair, despite how grim that leaves things for England.

It's a mess alright.

[DanieMarie]

Re: UK Votes to Leave the EU

Well, this is sure interesting, particularly if it's something you can expect over there as a result... http://www.thelocal.no/20160623/surp...place-for-food

Switzerland is soooo expensive. But that being said, wages are also really high. It's sort of an exception rather than a rule, though. I don't think just any place can decide it wants to be like Switzerland and actually succeed at it. It has cultivated its culture and its position over a couple of centuries.

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On this side of the English Channel, there is talk about Scotland's future within the EU. The EU doesn't want to lose a member and some countries would like to welcome an independent Scotland into the EU. HOWEVER, countries like Spain are dealing with their own very strong independence movements, and those countries probably won't support Scotland's membership. It could be close. But we'll see. A lot of said countries also have a lot of MEPs from alternative parties, who might vote in favour of Scotland.

Personally, I think that if Scotland votes to leave (and I think it will...I doubt they're going to give the Union a third chance), it should be allowed to remain an EU member. After all, it contributes to the EU and is so much a willing member that it would vote to become independent for it (well, among other things).

[Briton]

Re: UK Votes to Leave the EU

Wilful ignorance renders democracy a fool's errand.

I may make that a motto.

I've always stood by this, not just because "I didn't get my way". I could see the Leave camp was fettered with falsehoods from the beginning.

People try and brush off the connection between voting Leave and the racist attacks, but that is frankly ridiculous. It was clear from the start that vote to Leave was legitimizing the racist views of people like Britain First and UKIP, even if that wasn't what they wanted, that was the sort of philosophy that pushed Brexit. Voting for Brexit and pretending it wasn't propping up racism is like legalizing cannabis and assuming people wouldn't then smoke it.

Just to prove a point, I would like to post this link here. It is to a Facebook album of screen shots of people posting, across the nation, of ethnically driven animosity in the fall out of the referendum. It is wholly public and you do not need to log in to Facebook to use it, so I recommend everyone gives them a read.

https://www.facebook.com/sarah.leblanc.718/media_set?set=a.10101369198638985&type=3&pnref=story

I am a grandson of a Polish immigrant, and this is the first time in the campaign I have actually cried (last night, when I first saw these). The one that finally broke me was the Tweet about Polish school children being afraid of being deported. Now, where on Earth would they get an idea like that from?

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[Denarius]

Re: UK Votes to Leave the EU

The word you are looking for is xenophobia.

Not that there aren't racists among the voters, but to say that even a significant minority are racist is absurd imo. If you said chauvinist or, as I pointed out earlier, xenophobic I might have let the point slide.

We're not talking about Nazis or the KKK, we are talking about Nationalism and racial tension. Neither of which is racism. I've seen plenty of people saying horrendous things about white people as well, and people being called "race traitors" and worse, both sides are being belligerent and bigoted. They are, in both cases, a vocal minority. Once they get a solid grasp of what they are doing next, things will start settling down.

Uncertainty is scary, and scared people lash out.

[Briton]

Re: UK Votes to Leave the EU

Wow.

I'm glad you picked up on the important, fundamental message of my post, rather than nit picking the use of terminology which everyone fully acknowledges the common usage of.

[thalassa]

Re: UK Votes to Leave the EU

Depends on what you think "racism" means. Most xenophobia is rooted in racism. Because race is a completely made-up categorization of human ethnicity, and different cultures define what a "race" is differently. If you think someone from another ethnic group is inherently inferior, its racism. If you define it as some sort of institutionalized segregational policy, maybe not. Either way, its splitting hairs on one's personal understanding of the word. I like splitting hairs, but if its not a constructive hair split, lets move on.

[Denarius]

Re: UK Votes to Leave the EU

If you think someone from another ethnic group is inherently inferior, its racism.

Yes, and colloquially it's racial prejudice and/or hatred as well. That's the point I was making, that just plain isn't what we are talking about. No one was saying that the race riots (Baltimore, etc.) we've been having happened because the rioters were racist.

Racial tension is what we are talking about, which I consider an important distinction because the animosity is mutual. Racially charged, from both sides.

There were two points to my post, criticizing two points from his post. The first being that Brexit was not largely motivated by racism, I pointed out that I considered it to be Nationalism and named a few buzzwords (take that as splitting hairs if you want) that were (imo) more appropriate, and the second being about the unrest going on in its wake which I've just gone into.

TL;DR: Y'all the ones nitpicking.

[DanieMarie]

Re: UK Votes to Leave the EU

Wilful ignorance renders democracy a fool's errand.

I may make that a motto.

I've always stood by this, not just because "I didn't get my way". I could see the Leave camp was fettered with falsehoods from the beginning.

People try and brush off the connection between voting Leave and the racist attacks, but that is frankly ridiculous. It was clear from the start that vote to Leave was legitimizing the racist views of people like Britain First and UKIP, even if that wasn't what they wanted, that was the sort of philosophy that pushed Brexit. Voting for Brexit and pretending it wasn't propping up racism is like legalizing cannabis and assuming people wouldn't then smoke it.

Just to prove a point, I would like to post this link here. It is to a Facebook album of screen shots of people posting, across the nation, of ethnically driven animosity in the fall out of the referendum. It is wholly public and you do not need to log in to Facebook to use it, so I recommend everyone gives them a read.

https://www.facebook.com/sarah.leblanc.718/media_set?set=a.10101369198638985&type=3&pnref=story

I am a grandson of a Polish immigrant, and this is the first time in the campaign I have actually cried (last night, when I first saw these). The one that finally broke me was the Tweet about Polish school children being afraid of being deported. Now, where on Earth would they get an idea like that from?

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It's all very disappointing and alarming.

[Jembru]

Re: UK Votes to Leave the EU

Okay, first of all everyone seriously needs to calm the heck down. Nothing has happened yet and even if the exit goes ahead it is unlikely to be the disaster everyone is saying it will.

Many ministers have resigned now, my sister-in-law included. I don't think I'm breaking any confidentiality now if I say there is talk of a general election sometime around November. So my speculation was most likely correct and we'll have a chance to block the exit by voting in a party that promises not to go through with it. This is the ONLY democratic solution. A second referendum, or blocking it in parliament are not in the spirit of democracy. I can still see the positives of both leaving and remaining in the EU so this time I'll probably destroy my ballot, or else choose an option that cancels out JP's vote rather than take pot luck again.

Whatever the outcome is of that election I will support it because my fellow countrymen will have spoken. Whichever way it goes some people are going to be upset about it. But that's politics.

Until then all we're doing is buying into the media circus and spreading hysteria. I try to avoid being dragged along by negative egregores as nothing good ever comes of it, so for this reason I'm no longer engaging in discussions about the referendum which includes bowing out of this thread.

On that note. Peace out.