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'Gospel of Jesus's Wife': Insane backstory

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    #16
    Re: 'Gospel of Jesus's Wife': Insane backstory

    Originally posted by Briton View Post

    However, not only was the term "rabbi" not formalized in this era,

    Ask your local synagogue if you will doubt this, rather than the internet!
    We have no religious institutions other than Christian ones in my town unfortunately. I also read that Rabbi was a modern term not used in Jesus' day while searching about marriage. However, I know the two Jewish sages Hillel and Shammai are considered Rabbis and they existed from 50 BCE -30 CE. A little of Hillel and Shammai in context of Jewish history http://www.aish.com/jl/h/cc/48943176.html?mobile=yes. This article indicates Rabbis were in place as early as 273 BCE. Please note the credentials of the article's author in the bio at the bottom of the page. A little more on the historical use of the word Rabbi can be found here: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...sm/Rabbis.html

    I'd like to make another thread about Jesus the historical figure and scholars beliefs about who he was. If anyone wants to jump in before me, feel free. Just remember to cite your sources even if it's not online.

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      #17
      Re: 'Gospel of Jesus's Wife': Insane backstory

      In ancient Israel titles were hereditary but required some training for recognition. You could only become a priest if you were born of the family of Eli but not all born of that house were priests.
      Look to the Talmud as it states that one must stand in the presence of a Rabbi and or his spouse.
      The opinions of the Rabbinical Council is where the Talmud and Torah are interpreted for the meanings and definitions within Jewish law today. Like any institution definitions change and opinions vary over time.
      Last edited by DragonsFriend; 26 Jun 2016, 07:35.
      The Dragon sees infinity and those it touches are forced to feel the reality of it.
      I am his student and his partner. He is my guide and an ominous friend.

      Comment


        #18
        Re: 'Gospel of Jesus's Wife': Insane backstory

        This is going a bit askew, but when speaking of the Talmud there are always three things to consider:

        1. Which Talmud?

        2. The Talmud wasn't translated into English until the 1930s-40s (so it makes sense they'd use modern words and concepts)

        3. The first Talmud was compiled in the 4th century and the second about 500 years later


        (The local synagogue has always been my OT question headquarters)


        When it comes to Jesus, I'm with Briton in that, "Frankly I couldn't give a monkey's uncle if Jesus existed, let alone was married, so I don't have a dog in this fight." But I happen to find religion in general interesting, particularly the evolution of religion and religious concepts...therefore, the Christian split is one I've devoted quite a bit of time in inquiry to. And in that regard, there is a lot of very suspect Biblical scholarship that floats around the Pagan world, that also qualify as beliefs before facts. It is unfortunate, but it seems to be a lingering response to the antipathy that many Pagans have towards the (often) more conservative Christian traditions they have left (and in some cases, escaped in quite harrowing ways). The other problem that I think often results in belief before fact with regard to Pagan commentary about Christians is an insecurity that leads many to think that by calling Christian claims into question or error they give themselves legitimacy. Really, though, both just serve to reinforce some of the negative stereotypes about Pagans among non-Pagans (whether they are Christian or not).
        Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
        sigpic

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          #19
          Re: 'Gospel of Jesus's Wife': Insane backstory

          Out of sheer curiosity...what man wasn't married during Jesus' time? What exactly is so bad about a man being married on Earth? It's not like he was shacking it up with some harlot.


          wait.
          Satan is my spirit animal

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            #20
            Re: 'Gospel of Jesus's Wife': Insane backstory

            One could be a rabbi without being ordained, and rabbi Ben Azzai was an unmarried rabbi, albeit not ordained. He was, however, highly held.

            Furthermore, rabbi Humnuna was ordained and it was remarked that he was unmarried. There was resistance to his ordination, possibly due to his celibacy, but never any mention of his marrying. Of course, there is a dearth of detail in the lives of early rabbis, so it is hard to know exactly who did what. But celibacy was not unheard of.
            I'm not one to ever pray for mercy
            Or to wish on pennies in the fountain or the shrine
            But that day you know I left my money
            And I thought of you only
            All that copper glowing fine

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              #21
              Re: 'Gospel of Jesus's Wife': Insane backstory

              Like others here and elsewhere, there is little importance in these questions unless one looks for reality in the beliefs of others. I can easily accept the deification of Jesus just like I can accept the deification of Marduk. In most pagan "faiths" there is either a savior or a man who becomes a god. In most cases the savior construct requires that he/she give up something as valuable as life in order to be victorious over the adversity. In the case of man turned god the man most often is loved by his people because of things accomplished in their favor. Whether it be laws that bring more equality to the masses or the prosperity of the land the person is "bigger than life" and becomes a deity because of his importance to his people.
              The mythos becomes the fact which becomes the truth within that religion. The truth no longer matters when faith takes over.
              The Dragon sees infinity and those it touches are forced to feel the reality of it.
              I am his student and his partner. He is my guide and an ominous friend.

              Comment


                #22
                Re: 'Gospel of Jesus's Wife': Insane backstory

                Yes, well, all very fine & good, but the whole point of the post was the amusing story behind the origin of an apparently faked ancient document...
                Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                  #23
                  Re: 'Gospel of Jesus's Wife': Insane backstory

                  Since the research into its origins is ongoing, it is telling that you call it "apparently faked".
                  I think I'll wait to see what happens when the studies are concluded.
                  Last edited by DragonsFriend; 27 Jun 2016, 09:33.
                  The Dragon sees infinity and those it touches are forced to feel the reality of it.
                  I am his student and his partner. He is my guide and an ominous friend.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Re: 'Gospel of Jesus's Wife': Insane backstory

                    Originally posted by DragonsFriend View Post
                    Since the research into its origins is ongoing, it is telling that you call it "apparently faked".
                    I think I'll wait to see what happens when the studies are concluded.
                    Telling? In what way? Just what are you accusing me of, there, cowboy?

                    Most art forgeries are revealed by questions of provenance, not by analysis.
                    Last edited by B. de Corbin; 27 Jun 2016, 09:35.
                    Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by DragonsFriend View Post
                      Since the research into its origins is ongoing, it is telling that you call it "apparently faked".
                      I think I'll wait to see what happens when the studies are concluded.
                      Have a read of the article! If for no other reason than to read a well written story. Essentially the author is bringing in to question its authenticity very .... (Snr moment...lost the word) convincingly(?). So it's appropriate for Corbin to call it "apparently faked" in this context. Again, have a read! Mostly because I was thoroughly entertained and want to share that with you. And yea, it will be interesting to see what the conclusion will be.

                      Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post

                      Most art forgeries are revealed by questions of provenance, not by analysis.
                      Had to look up provenance.. Lol this thread just keeps adding to my vocabulary. Love it. I still don't quite understand parsimony in this context though. Thalassa's or maybe Corbin if you get it can you clarify?
                      Last edited by Azvanna; 27 Jun 2016, 09:48.

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                        #26
                        Re: 'Gospel of Jesus's Wife': Insane backstory

                        Originally posted by Azvanna
                        Had to look up provenance.. Lol this thread just keeps adding to my vocabulary. Love it. I still don't quite understand parsimony in this context though. Thalassa's or maybe Corbin if you get it can you clarify?
                        LOL -parsimony, first definition (the way it is most commonly used) is something like "stingy."

                        In the second defintion, the one Thalassa was using, it means something like "applying Occam's razor, being stingy with theory, chosing the most likely explanation that fits the data rather than spinning convoluted theory to explain away discrepancies."

                        Assuming that the author was honest in his investagative journalism, there are too, too many red flags raised that it is a fake to give it credit for being authentic, unless some other info comes to light.

                        "Provenance" is of major importance in art and antique authentification because, truth is, they are easy to fake. A friend was just telling me about somebody who hand a pistol he claimed was owned by Jessi James. If the claim were true, the value of the gun would change from about $300 to (possibly) $10,000 or more.

                        But they guy doesn't have documantation to prove conclusively that it was owned by J. James, so - no provenace, no increase in value.
                        Last edited by B. de Corbin; 27 Jun 2016, 09:57.
                        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Re: 'Gospel of Jesus's Wife': Insane backstory

                          Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post

                          In the second defintion, the one Thalassa was using, it means something like "applying Occam's razor, being stingy with theory, chosing the most likely explanation that fits the data rather than spinning convoluted theory to explain away discrepancies."
                          Right, because when Thal said 'defies every inch of parsimony' I thought she meant it defied Occam's Razor essentially but now I think she means it's a really good example of parsimony applied to the extreme circumstances here.. Gosh I think I should just go to sleep! Lol.
                          Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                          Assuming that the author was honest in his investagative journalism, there are too, too many red flags raised that it is a fake to give it credit for being authentic, unless some other info comes to light.

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                            #28
                            Re: 'Gospel of Jesus's Wife': Insane backstory

                            I don't remember accusing anyone of anything. It is telling about YOUR decision making process that you would judge the work based on a story full of innuendos and hearsay with very little facts to base an opinion of the artifact on rather than to wait and see what the evidence tells.

                            The author of the story brings to question the moral character of one person in a nearly empty line of provenance. Nothing is said about the work itself. I put more faith in the science of the paper and ink, it's dating, and the objective evidence than I can in a news story. (sorry, I have an innate distrust of reporters because they tend to write for sensationalism or to fit their personal views rather than objective truth).
                            For instance; it is always a racially motivated act when a white person offends or attacks a black person but it is never a racially motivated attack if a black man offends or attacks a white person.
                            It is big news when a gun is used in a crime but there is no news when a gun is used in self defense (unless the above applies).
                            It is never a radical (enter race, religion, or ethnicity here) who perpetrates a violent act unless the attacker is (white, upper middle class, male and Christian).
                            It is never a "black", Muslim, or Mexican man who commits a crime, its just a man unless he is white - then they provide a description which includes color, race and religion.
                            Why is it so hard to identify a criminal with his race or religion ALL the time?
                            Last edited by DragonsFriend; 27 Jun 2016, 10:08.
                            The Dragon sees infinity and those it touches are forced to feel the reality of it.
                            I am his student and his partner. He is my guide and an ominous friend.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Re: 'Gospel of Jesus's Wife': Insane backstory

                              Originally posted by DragonsFriend View Post
                              The author of the story brings to question the moral character of one person in a nearly empty line of provenance. Nothing is said about the work itself. I put more faith in the science of the paper and ink, it's dating, and the objective evidence than I can in a news story. objective truth).
                              Can ink be dated other than testing it for ingredients used?

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                                #30
                                Re: 'Gospel of Jesus's Wife': Insane backstory

                                If it has carbon or other organic compounds it can be destructively tested for date. You can also use UV technology as NASA has on the Mars rover.
                                My answer is yes, they can date the ink.
                                The Dragon sees infinity and those it touches are forced to feel the reality of it.
                                I am his student and his partner. He is my guide and an ominous friend.

                                Comment

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