Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 30

Thread: Can a thing be both true and false at the same time?

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    The Gaze of the Abyss B. de Corbin's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    8,257
    Religion
    Alchemist and Neo-American Redneck Buddhist
    Location
    Frozen Northern Michigan, near Thunder Bay
    Phrase
    Where are the tweezers?

    Can a thing be both true and false at the same time?

    In Western logic, a fundamental principle is that a thing can be either true or false, but not both.

    Basic principles like: If A = B and B = C then A = C fall apart if this principle is false because then A could equal C, but also not equal C (If A = B and B = C then A may or may not = C).

    In more concrete terms, If 6+4=10 and 15-5=10 then 6+4=15-5 becomes If 6+4=10 and 15-5=10 then 6+4 may or may not = 15-5.

    Here's a video describing the problem:



    So - is it possible for a thing to be both true and false at the same time?

    (I realize that this seems to be a highly abstract problem, but it has huge aplications in real-world thinking. Instead of being forced to say "yes" or "no" in responding to a simple question it becomes intellectually valid - i.e. Not a copout or mealy-mouthed - to say "yes and no.")
    Those who have suffered understand suffering and therefore extend their hand.

    I can't do everything, but I can do something.

  2. #2
    PF Ordo Hereticus MaskedOne's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    7,762
    Religion
    Jedi
    Location
    elsewhere
    Phrase
    The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the power of the Force.

    Re: Can a thing be both true and false at the same time?

    Can you take the square root of a negative number?

    That's the closest scenario I can think of atm where "yes and no" becomes valid.
    "It is not simply enough to know the light…a Jedi must feel the tension between the two sides of the Force…in himself and in the universe."
    ―Thon

    "When to the Force you truly give yourself, all you do expresses the truth of who you are,"

    Yoda

    Yoda told stories, and ate, and cried, and laughed: and the Padawans saw that life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

    Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

    "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

    John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

    "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

    Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis



  3. #3
    The Gaze of the Abyss B. de Corbin's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    8,257
    Religion
    Alchemist and Neo-American Redneck Buddhist
    Location
    Frozen Northern Michigan, near Thunder Bay
    Phrase
    Where are the tweezers?

    Re: Can a thing be both true and false at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaskedOne View Post
    Can you take the square root of a negative number?

    That's the closest scenario I can think of atm where "yes and no" becomes valid.
    Much simpler: This statement is false. Is the preceeding sentence true?

    Also, if you want to find a plethora of examples, change abstractions into concretes...
    Last edited by B. de Corbin; 10 Jul 2016 at 06:26.
    Those who have suffered understand suffering and therefore extend their hand.

    I can't do everything, but I can do something.

  4. #4
    Live and learn anunitu's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    10,896
    Religion
    stregheria

    Re: Can a thing be both true and false at the same time?

    The square root of -1 is defined as I(Imaginary number) I had to work with this while studying electronics. It is a bit hard to wrap your mind around it at first.

    Imaginary Number.

    also Boolean algebra...
    Last edited by anunitu; 10 Jul 2016 at 06:32.
    MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

    all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
    NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
    don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




    http://www.paganforum.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=186&dateline=1330020104

    my new page here,let me know what you think.


    nothing but the shadow of what was

  5. #5
    Copper Member
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    965
    Gender
    male
    Religion
    Arratu - based on Sumer 4500 to 1800BCE
    Location
    SE Washington

    Re: Can a thing be both true and false at the same time?

    The sun is a good thing. The sun is a bad thing. Both statements are true but they are also contradictory. In reality the sun is. it exists as a system and not a single thing. (similar to the square root of a negative number) the square root of -4 is 2 and -2, a system and not an absolute.
    When operating with absolute values they can be true or not but not both. There is only a single value. When operating with systems there can be properties that are true and false.

    I like numbers, they have absolute values but can be used in systems that don't have absolute values. Zero has no value, yet you can multiply with it, add it and subtract it but you can't divide by it. Logically any number divided by itself is 1. If you could divide by zero the zero divided by zero would be 1. If you divide any number by zero you get infinity and why not multiplying any number by zero gives you zero. True or not many statement have degrees of each.

  6. #6
    The Gaze of the Abyss B. de Corbin's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    8,257
    Religion
    Alchemist and Neo-American Redneck Buddhist
    Location
    Frozen Northern Michigan, near Thunder Bay
    Phrase
    Where are the tweezers?

    Re: Can a thing be both true and false at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsFriend View Post
    The sun is a good thing. The sun is a bad thing. Both statements are true but they are also contradictory. In reality the sun is. it exists as a system and not a single thing. (similar to the square root of a negative number) the square root of -4 is 2 and -2, a system and not an absolute.
    When operating with absolute values they can be true or not but not both. There is only a single value. When operating with systems there can be properties that are true and false.
    The value of Western bolar logic is that it forces "large grain" questions to be rephrased as "small grained" questions, increasing exactitude.

    "Is the sun a good thing?" Is a large grained question because it is indefinite, leading to a "yes and no" response as the only possible response. Since binary logic can not accept "yes and no" as an answer, the question would be tossed back as malformed, and would have to be revised (made small grained) by including specific details of context (i.e: is the sun good for photosynthesis?").

    With absolute values, I wonder if 10 always equals 10. This is where the question actually gets interesting...
    Last edited by B. de Corbin; 10 Jul 2016 at 09:07.
    Those who have suffered understand suffering and therefore extend their hand.

    I can't do everything, but I can do something.

  7. #7
    sea witch thalassa's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    11,213
    Religion
    relational theophysis and bioregional witchery
    Location
    coastal Georgia
    Phrase
    *a little bad taste is like a nice dash of paprika*

    Re: Can a thing be both true and false at the same time?

    How are we defining "truth"?
    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

    “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
    ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

    "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
    ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

    "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

    Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible

  8. #8
    The Gaze of the Abyss B. de Corbin's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    8,257
    Religion
    Alchemist and Neo-American Redneck Buddhist
    Location
    Frozen Northern Michigan, near Thunder Bay
    Phrase
    Where are the tweezers?

    Re: Can a thing be both true and false at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by thalassa View Post
    How are we defining "truth"?
    Matching reality .

    I.e.: a thing is true (in this context) if it can be demonstrated to accurately reflect reality.

    "Truth" is the quality possessed by a true statement.
    Last edited by B. de Corbin; 10 Jul 2016 at 08:57.
    Those who have suffered understand suffering and therefore extend their hand.

    I can't do everything, but I can do something.

  9. #9
    Copper Member
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    965
    Gender
    male
    Religion
    Arratu - based on Sumer 4500 to 1800BCE
    Location
    SE Washington

    Re: Can a thing be both true and false at the same time?

    It seemed from the first post that we were using true as an adjective while "TRUTH" infers a noun. The TRUE statement -> The TRUTH is.
    I don't know how anyone else has defined it but it seemed to me the usage was self evident.

  10. #10
    Live and learn anunitu's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    10,896
    Religion
    stregheria

    Re: Can a thing be both true and false at the same time?

    In reality there are also things that violate the "Laws" of physics The whole string theory idea,and the idea( I believe recorded) where the mere observation of something can change the outcome. The idea that a subatomic partial can exist in more than one place at the same time. The attempt to explain these things..oh and Schrödinger's cat(poor kitty does not know if it is coming or going).
    And the question if true and false can describe the same object(Perhaps or perhaps not) or true and false. Welcome to the rabbit hole...
    MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

    all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
    NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
    don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




    http://www.paganforum.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=186&dateline=1330020104

    my new page here,let me know what you think.


    nothing but the shadow of what was

Similar Threads

  1. True or false?
    By B. de Corbin in forum Catacombs
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 14 Aug 2015, 07:46
  2. false gods
    By nbdy in forum Religion and Spirituality Discussion
    Replies: 59
    Last Post: 14 Nov 2014, 16:37
  3. Replies: 32
    Last Post: 29 Oct 2014, 15:50
  4. False Gods
    By anubisa in forum Catacombs
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 08 Mar 2014, 10:41

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •