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My favorite altered state - "the snooze"

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    My favorite altered state - "the snooze"

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    This is partially for people who tell me they can't meditate - I say, you potentially do it all the time.

    But more, it's because I love sleep.

    When I was ill, I would go days unable to sleep. This might have been the shittiest part of it because, not only was it horrible itself, it increased the horror, and my inability to do anything about it, of everything else. And oblivion was generally unavailable...

    Currently, I never have trouble falling asleep, I sleep every opportunity I get, and I have made cats my heroes because of their Ability to close their eyes, take a nap, a enjoy a lovely few minutes every chance they get.

    If you read that and your initial reaction is: "lazy jerk," maybe you could consider that sleep has historically been seen as sacred, and, perhaps, re-mythologize your attitude about the beauty of the snooze.

    Trust me... No, don't trust me. Try it. You'll fall in love, too.

    Falling for sleep: When wakefulness is seen as the main event, no wonder so many have trouble sleeping. Can we rekindle the joy of slumber?
    Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.


    #2
    Re: My favorite altered state - "the snooze"

    I be digging that cat nap lifestyle my own self..
    MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

    all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
    NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
    don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




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    my new page here,let me know what you think.


    nothing but the shadow of what was

    witchvox
    http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

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      #3
      Re: My favorite altered state - "the snooze"

      Half way through this article, the author talks about leaving the third eye open when you enter sleep and staying aware during deep sleep. Fine, but does it interfere with the direction of the dream? If you stay aware of your dream, you can change the direction of the dream, right? Wouldn't that mean you're not really freely exploring your subconscious? So there'd be depths there that you may not access?

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        #4
        Re: My favorite altered state - "the snooze"

        Meditation and sleep have very little in common. Meditation is usually very close to pure alpha wave brain activity with short incursions of beta waves. Sleep is theta and delta waves with incursions of beta during REM sleep. The mindfulness of meditation is lost in sleep. You are essentially unconscious to the world around you.
        Vivid dreams are not in the least bit relaxing as the brain is working as though it is responding to the real world and muscles contract and work as hard as they do in isometric exercises. You would have to show me evidence of sleep being similar to meditation at all.

        For a quick review of sleep and brain wave activity see this: http://www.psych.westminster.edu/psy...Brainwaves.htm
        The Dragon sees infinity and those it touches are forced to feel the reality of it.
        I am his student and his partner. He is my guide and an ominous friend.

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          #5
          Re: My favorite altered state - "the snooze"

          Originally posted by Azvanna View Post
          Half way through this article, the author talks about leaving the third eye open when you enter sleep and staying aware during deep sleep. Fine, but does it interfere with the direction of the dream? If you stay aware of your dream, you can change the direction of the dream, right? Wouldn't that mean you're not really freely exploring your subconscious? So there'd be depths there that you may not access?
          That's a good question - I wonder that as well. From what I've read of a practitioner of that form of yogi, he described the dream sleep as "a very noisy place," and seemed to indicate that it was a place that one passes through.

          I would picture it as being like lucid dreaming. If I were able to do it, I think I would act as an observer. The point of my particular practice is "letting go of illusion/delusion (maya)," and the "dream world" would be one more place to practice that.

          Entirely IMHO...

          - - - Updated - - -

          Originally posted by DragonsFriend View Post
          Meditation and sleep have very little in common...
          Umma gonna go with the Dalai Lama on this one, I think.

          Last edited by B. de Corbin; 12 Jul 2016, 16:49.
          Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

          Comment


            #6
            Re: My favorite altered state - "the snooze"

            Opinion is rarely good evidence, even if it is the opinion of the Dalai Lama.
            I cannot argue faith with science nor logic.
            It is a lot like trying to teach a pig to sing.
            The Dragon sees infinity and those it touches are forced to feel the reality of it.
            I am his student and his partner. He is my guide and an ominous friend.

            Comment


              #7
              Re: My favorite altered state - "the snooze"

              Originally posted by DragonsFriend View Post
              Opinion is rarely good evidence, even if it is the opinion of the Dalai Lama.
              I cannot argue faith with science nor logic.
              It is a lot like trying to teach a pig to sing.
              Somebody raised, since the age of six, practicing a range of activities commonly called "meditation" is far more expert on the subject than are brain scientists who have hooked up a limited number of people to a machine and proclaimed (if they really did, but I would bet that they actually noted the specific form of meditation they were working with, assuming they were qualified to talk about meditation at all) that brainwave X is meditation, but brainwave Y is not.

              I won't further argue with a person whose mind is shut to experience, and open only to lines in books. It's too much like listening to a pig try to sing.
              Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: My favorite altered state - "the snooze"

                Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post

                I would picture it as being like lucid dreaming. If I were able to do it, I think I would act as an observer. The point of my particular practice is "letting go of illusion/delusion (maya)," and the "dream world" would be one more place to practice that.
                I wonder how hard it would be to simply observe if heading into a nightmare. My husband has a natural ability for lucid dreaming. He never developed it consciously, but in all his dreaming and especially if a nightmare begins, he can simply take control and change the thing into a bunny or ice cream or whatever! The only time he can't do this is when he's really sick. I don't view lucid dreaming as a positive unless you're purely an observer like you say, Corbin, because then your fears are never really brought to your awareness. I could name my husband's fears with a certain amount of accuracy, but I'm not sure he could. I also wonder how subconscious the subconscious would become if it knew it were being watched.. kind of like us. If we know we're being watched, our behaviour is changed to suit what we think the observer might be pleased with seeing. If I understand the quantum physics right (is that even possible...), even particles change behaviour when being observed.

                Not to be a downer on this, because I believe in the power of dreams. I used to keep a dream journal in my teens because I was prone to very vivid dreams that I believed to be spiritual messages (probably hormone related). Those few seconds between waking and sleeping are really interesting to me too. Once in that state, I heard music like nothing on earth. There were notes and tones and timbres in there that I can't describe and have never heard. At the time, I thought maybe I was listening to God's choir of angels. I tried to replicate the music by recording effects through my electric guitar and layering, but just never got there. Truly very special.

                Actually, there was one time I feel like maybe I reached this state of dreaming but awake and was observing in meditation. When I was expanding awareness, it was like I found a current and followed it. The scene I observed played out before me and it was though I was there, but I had no physical presence and the other players in the scene were unaware of my presence. It was different from other 'visions' I'd had as my other visions tend to be while I'm in prayer for others and I get more of a pictorial impression. This was much more like dreaming and the fact that I can't tell you if I fell asleep or not probably means I did.

                Originally posted by DragonsFriend View Post
                Opinion is rarely good evidence, even if it is the opinion of the Dalai Lama.
                Oh, you've got us there! We do like our good science here at PF
                Last edited by Azvanna; 12 Jul 2016, 18:13.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: My favorite altered state - "the snooze"

                  As someone who frequently slips between different brain waves when meditating, including sometimes going from active visualisation to full-blown lucid dreaming where I am fully aware of my purpose for being in that landscape, but it is otherwise like I'm walking through a dream, then I'm gonna have to side with Corbin on this one. The subconscious doesn't much like being put into neat little boxes and I think it's very limiting to strive only to utilise a narrow range of brain wave activity when we at least all seem to agree that there is much more we don't know about the brain's function, than we do know.

                  You won't get links or quotes to back up my theory though. My spirituality doesn't concern itself much with trying prove myself right. I'm less concerned about being right and more concerned about just being.
                  夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

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                    #10
                    Re: My favorite altered state - "the snooze"

                    I have insomnia due to bi polar. I can only sleep with zzzquil. Though due to my naturally inclined night owl status, I can do a good nap(if I put my audiobook on).
                    I can't meditate. i can't sleep.
                    I'm effed.
                    Satan is my spirit animal

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: My favorite altered state - "the snooze"

                      Originally posted by Azvanna View Post
                      I wonder how hard it would be to simply observe if heading into a nightmare. My husband has a natural ability for lucid dreaming. He never developed it consciously, but in all his dreaming and especially if a nightmare begins, he can simply take control and change the thing into a bunny or ice cream or whatever! The only time he can't do this is when he's really sick. I don't view lucid dreaming as a positive unless you're purely an observer like you say, Corbin, because then your fears are never really brought to your awareness. I could name my husband's fears with a certain amount of accuracy, but I'm not sure he could. I also wonder how subconscious the subconscious would become if it knew it were being watched.. kind of like us. If we know we're being watched, our behaviour is changed to suit what we think the observer might be pleased with seeing. If I understand the quantum physics right (is that even possible...), even particles change behaviour when being observed.
                      This is pretty much what I imagine as well.

                      I have had lucid dreams on rare occassions, but not often enough or consistently enough to be able to experiment with them - just often enough to know it is possible to have them, so I'm not much of an expert. I'd kindda like to know what your hubby feels about this...

                      And this is also why I would act as an observer, and let things unfold - even in a nightmare, where horror can go beyond description - to be able to detach from the the overwhelming fear enough to watch how things unfold seems like it would provide more info than would changing things to be more pleasant.

                      As far as what the subconcious would do, I think the idea of "retreating into darkness" might come into play. By definition, as soon as something subconscious becomes conscious it is no longer subconscious. Taking control in a lucid dream might mean that a line of communication has been cut off and turned into a way of enjoying fantasy (not that fantasy is bad, but the mind does other things as well), causing the communication to be lost in the shuffle. This is purely speculative on my part - again, I don't lucid dream often enough to be able to test the theory. It would be interesting to hear from somebody who does, and can test it.

                      One thing I actually am certain about is this - when the subconcious is aware that you are observing your dreams (as when you keep a dream diary), it will change the dream content. I have seen this very often, and read or talked with many people who have had the same experience:

                      If you analyze your dreams using Freudian theory, you start having Freudian dreams. Use Jungian theory, and you have Jungian dreams. Alchemy theory brings alchemy dreams, while Christian, or Muslim, or Jewish theory brings Christian, or Muslim, or Jewish dreams. The effect of changing the theory you use to understand dreams has a profound effect on the content of the dream.

                      IMHO, I think this is because the subconciuos wants to be heard, and will try to communicate in whatever language the observer is trying listen with.

                      - - - Updated - - -

                      Originally posted by Jembru View Post
                      You won't get links or quotes to back up my theory though. My spirituality doesn't concern itself much with trying prove myself right. I'm less concerned about being right and more concerned about just being.
                      I have come to the conclusion that books have a limited value (and this is coming from a person who, literally, loves books!).

                      It's always good to have information, and books can give you all kinds of ideas that you may not have ever been able to think of yourself, but if one is going to explore the subjective world, one should remember that the value of a subjective experience is subjective, and does not require comfirmation from books, and that measurements measure only what can be measured.

                      Subjective experience is not measurable.

                      - - - Updated - - -

                      Originally posted by Medusa View Post
                      I have insomnia due to bi polar. I can only sleep with zzzquil. Though due to my naturally inclined night owl status, I can do a good nap(if I put my audiobook on).
                      I can't meditate. i can't sleep.
                      I'm effed.
                      I feel your pain. For a while I was downing 10 benadryls a night, and they stopped having any effect at all. I once ODed on 'quill, and it was not a pleasant experience...
                      Last edited by B. de Corbin; 13 Jul 2016, 01:46.
                      Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                        #12
                        Re: My favorite altered state - "the snooze"

                        Speaking of dreams, here is an interesting article:

                        Are dreams predictions?: Dreams might not be omens or prophecies in a mystical sense, but they do have a distinct psychological predictive power

                        To the extent that the author is on the right track (but I suspect that "dreaming" is information dense - there is far more going on than allows a single theory to explain them), it tends to support the idea that controling dreams may - at least in a vague way - be less than optimal.
                        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: My favorite altered state - "the snooze"

                          Since the last time we were talking about sleep, dreams, and meditation, I've been conducting an experiment, and thought I'd share the results. I have some new insights...

                          Background:

                          1. I'm an experienced meditator - I've been doing it for a long time. Although there are many types and techniques of meditiation, the "standard" for me is the simple breath-counting meditation.

                          2. I know from past experience that, if I meditate while tired and lying down, I'll fall asleep fairly quickly. In fact, this is the usual way I go to sleep at night.

                          3. I have had a couple of times where I fell asleep, then woke up, still breath-counting. this suggests that it is possible to meditate in your sleep, although I've never remembered any dreams when doing this. My suspicion is that I entered the hypnagogic state - the state between wakeful and sleeping. this state is characterized (subjectively) by vivid hallucinations that seen very real - i.e: true hallucinations, which are different from pseudohallucinations where the hallucinator knows he/she is hallucinating. Everybody goes through this state every night, but usually doesn't remember the hallucinations because the state is also characterized by complete amnesia of the experience, unless a person wakes up during the state.

                          4. I have previously experimented with the hypnogogic state by paying close attention to the subjective experience of "falling asleep," then waking myself up before reaching full sleep - and amnesia. From these experiments I know that, as one falls asleep, there is a strong, almost irresistible desire to "let go." This "almost irresistible desire to let go" is much like a drug craving. You want it so bad that resistance seems pointless. I suspect this is an effect of the brain chemicals that bring on sleep.

                          Because of these 4 experiences, it occurred to me that I could try breath counting meditation while monitoring my "falling asleep," and possibly avoid the amnesia. So that's what I did.

                          I can't say that I have mastered this, but I did have a couple of experiences that may shed a little light on what is going on. In both cases I found that I could switch my attention from breath-counting to hypnagogic hallucinations at will. I didn't experience both at once, but could shift from one to the other as I chose. The quality of the hallucinations was still very realistic - when I was there, I experienced them as "real" (they were nothing special - I was walking the dog on one occasion, and on the other I was watching a movie that I had just finished watching), and the knowledge that I was hallucinating did not enter into my experience, but, at the same time, I could shift to the other perspective - the one where I was counting breaths, as if I were somehow aware that I was having both experiences at the same time..

                          My best guess as to what was happening is this - it is a well established fact from experiments on people who have had the connection between the two brain hemispheres (the corpus callosum) that each hemisphere acts independently, and the subjective perception of a single conciousness is due to the near instantaneous communication between hemispheres through the corpus callosum.

                          It may be possible that one hemisphere was engaged in the breath-counting meditation, while the other half was engaged in the hypnogogic hallucinations.

                          If that's the case, it would mean that there is a third independent consciousness at work as well - the one that was "the observer," the "I."

                          I wonder where that thing comes from? Is it a third part of the brain, or an amalgam to the two hemispheres that can turn inward and observe itself, or what...?
                          Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                            #14
                            Re: My favorite altered state - "the snooze"

                            Thanks for the update on your experimenting. This could very much explain my own experiences of vivid dreaming/journeying. I can only enter that state if I meditate lying down, and can only bring it on deliberately if I listen to drumming. It would make sense then that the drum sounds are keeping enough of my mind active to prevent me falling into a deeper sleep state and thus allow me to recall the visions. It's good to have a possible explanation as to what is happening to me.

                            Mind you, at the same time I'm a bit bummed out by that. I mean, does this mean I haven't been entering the spirit worlds after all? Has it all just been a hallucination? I guess I have to be willing to accept that as a very real possibility. It's just the things I've learnt through these visions have had such real and positive affects on my life. Has it really all been nothing but a coincidence?
                            夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: My favorite altered state - "the snooze"

                              Originally posted by Jembru View Post
                              Mind you, at the same time I'm a bit bummed out by that. I mean, does this mean I haven't been entering the spirit worlds after all? Has it all just been a hallucination? I guess I have to be willing to accept that as a very real possibility. It's just the things I've learnt through these visions have had such real and positive affects on my life. Has it really all been nothing but a coincidence?
                              Take the word "hallucination" with a few large grains of salt. I use the word because I'm trying for clarity in expressing my thinking and experiences. But giving a thing a name is not the same as knowing what a thing is.

                              We call dreams imaginary because, once we wake up, waking "reality" feels more real than dreaming "reality." In other words, we call things real if they feel real in comparison to other things, but, in truth, we don't know what really is real, or what is imaginary. Both real and imaginary are products of the brain - literally, the brain costructs ordinary "reality" by creating an internal model based on sensory input (right now, I feel a pain in my arm. The pain, however, is created in the brain, then projected outward to the place that is "arm" in a model of my body created by the brain).

                              The brain also recieves input from other parts of itself. We really have no way of telling whether input is coming from the outside, or the inside... Other than reality testing (is the water hot? Feel it). But, since reality testing requires the brain to interpret sensory data, which could also be data being input from other parts of the brain, we end up knowing nothing.

                              Theoretically, the real test would be survival. If I imagine that a truck barreling down the road is a ball of cotton I won't live long, and my crazy genes don't reproduce. However, not every possible event is a survival crisis, and, there may be ways in which interpreting outer experience as inner experience, or interpreting inner experience as outer experience may lend a hand to survival. Even reality testing doesn't give us exact answers...

                              ... with this in mind, consider - does your spirit journeying increase, in some way, your chances of survival? (And you say they have)

                              If so, it is real enough.
                              Last edited by B. de Corbin; 23 Oct 2016, 16:13.
                              Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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