Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 20

Thread: Transgender parents rights

  1. #1
    sea witch thalassa's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    11,233
    Religion
    relational theophysis and bioregional witchery
    Location
    coastal Georgia
    Phrase
    *a little bad taste is like a nice dash of paprika*

    Transgender parents rights

    So, I legit know that the US sucks in this regard...but I don't think even we suck this much (some states might):

    They were living in a small village in Finland where no one was out. What about moving to somewhere more metropolitan? Unfortunately, even in Helsinki, the largest city, there were few resources and little understanding for trans folk.


    Worse still, Finland lags far behind in trans rights compared to many countries deemed “progressive”. While anti-discrimination laws are on the books, discrimination is still a huge problem in everyday life. Finding housing, work and community are big challenges. And if Juliet wants to come out in her home country and change her name and gender marker, she must first be sterilized.


    Yes, forced sterilization is mandatory in Finland for trans people. That’s not only a human rights violation, but a serious problem when you want to grow your family, as this couple does. You must also convert your marriage to a civil union, thus losing many of the legal benefits of married couples.


    And just in case that isn’t enough to turn your stomach, Juliet would lose her rights as a parent to one-year-old Helmi. As far as we can tell in the research we’ve been doing, she would have to adopt her.


    Yes. Adopt her biological child. And not as a second mom, but as a “caregiver.” No defined parental role because Helmi can’t have two moms on the books. How is that even okay in 2016?


    blog source
    WTF.
    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

    “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
    ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

    "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
    ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

    "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

    Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible

  2. #2
    Copper Member
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    965
    Gender
    male
    Religion
    Arratu - based on Sumer 4500 to 1800BCE
    Location
    SE Washington

    Re: Transgender parents rights

    Parental rights are (or should be) parental rights. Gender should have no place in marriage or parenting. As a matter of fact no government should be able to say how you should live your life or with whom as long as you are not interfering with the way others live their lives.

  3. #3
    Sr. Member faye_cat's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    475
    Religion
    Ecletic pagan.
    Location
    Tennessee, USA
    Phrase
    This too shall pass.

    Re: Transgender parents rights

    This is literally sickening. I...don't understand. At all.
    “I am Cat and I walk alone and all ways are the same to me.” ~Rudyard Kipling, The Cat Who Walks By Himself

  4. #4
    Nihilistic Goddess Medusa's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    10,252
    Religion
    LaVeyan Satanist
    Phrase
    A Clockwork orange

    Re: Transgender parents rights

    When people are all like yeah, those Nordic countries have bicycle lanes and potted plants, health care and low crime, I call side eye. There's always some effed up human right's thing that just makes you go wtf.

    Always.


    Al.Ways.
    Satan is my spirit animal

  5. #5
    Live and learn anunitu's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    10,992
    Religion
    stregheria

    Re: Transgender parents rights

    Humans always get things so screwed up..Lots of old religious bigotry hiding in the wings,just waiting to come out.
    MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

    all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
    NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
    don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




    http://www.paganforum.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=186&dateline=1330020104

    my new page here,let me know what you think.


    nothing but the shadow of what was

  6. #6
    Lord Contrarian Denarius's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    1,718
    Gender
    Neither
    Religion
    Singularitarian
    Location
    Pacific Northwest
    Phrase
    If you can't slam with the best, then jam with the rest.

    Re: Transgender parents rights

    "Caregiver" and "civil union" shouldn't carry any more or less rights than "parent" or "marriage," if they use the terms at all, which is a legitimate criticism. The adoption step is also unnecessary and ridiculous.

    The "forced sterilization" thing is a gross misrepresentation of the situation though. Basically, in order to be legally recognized as the opposite sex you must have undergone Sex Reassignment Surgery. Which itself requires a diagnosis of Gender Identity Disorder.

    You have to draw a line in the sand somewhere, that's where they chose. I see nothing wrong with that, it's not forcing anyone to do anything. It's just setting a requirement for legal recognition.

    As far as I'm concerned, if the state is going to recognize someone's sex then this is a fine standard for doing so in regards to GID. It shouldn't really be in the business of recognizing gender identity, however. I don't think it's a wise use of resources to validate someone's feeling that they are mayonnaise gendered or their sexual identity as an attack helicopter.

    Basically, gender identity doesn't and shouldn't matter legally. Those are social issues, not legal ones. Something for society to decide, not the state.
    Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

  7. #7
    sea witch thalassa's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    11,233
    Religion
    relational theophysis and bioregional witchery
    Location
    coastal Georgia
    Phrase
    *a little bad taste is like a nice dash of paprika*

    Re: Transgender parents rights

    The "forced sterilization" thing is a gross misrepresentation of the situation though. Basically, in order to be legally recognized as the opposite sex you must have undergone Sex Reassignment Surgery. Which itself requires a diagnosis of Gender Identity Disorder.

    You have to draw a line in the sand somewhere, that's where they chose. I see nothing wrong with that, it's not forcing anyone to do anything. It's just setting a requirement for legal recognition.

    As far as I'm concerned, if the state is going to recognize someone's sex then this is a fine standard for doing so in regards to GID.
    So what organs are we going by here? Biological sex is a bit more complicated than an innie vs. outie (despite how our society views them, they are not primary sex organs, not sex determining organs). How are you checking that? Genetics isn't foolproof either. Sure intersex individuals are rare and it's not the same as being transsexual, but if a system isn't even equipped to handle the former, it sure as shit isn't capable of handling the latter.
    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

    “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
    ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

    "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
    ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

    "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

    Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible

  8. #8
    Lord Contrarian Denarius's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    1,718
    Gender
    Neither
    Religion
    Singularitarian
    Location
    Pacific Northwest
    Phrase
    If you can't slam with the best, then jam with the rest.

    Re: Transgender parents rights

    Quote Originally Posted by thalassa View Post
    ...if a system isn't even equipped to handle the former, it sure as shit isn't capable of handling the latter.
    What problems is the system having with them, exactly? People with ambiguous genitalia are rare, and sex chromosome abnormalities rarer still.

    We're talking about hundreds of people in a population of millions, and they face problems but not in terms of bureaucracy as far as I know. I couldn't find anything, anyway.
    Last edited by Denarius; 19 Jul 2016 at 02:33.
    Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

  9. #9
    Silver Member anubisa's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    2,577
    Religion
    Egyptian Wiccan
    Location
    Morgantown, WV
    Phrase
    Daughter of Lord Anubis and Lady Bast.

    Re: Transgender parents rights

    This is my thought...what the hell does it matter as long as the child is loved and is in a stable and safe environment? I have seen on the news plenty of things about children who are with their real parents who are not being taken cared of. Hell, there are parents that leave their children in the car to go and get high! WTF! Why make a big deal out of transgender parents when they care of and love the children they adopt? Their are hundreds of millions of children out there who need adopting and need loving homes and these a-holes are going to make an issue of people being transgender. Get your priorities straight. I can't stand judgmental people.
    Anubisa

    Dedicated and devoted to Lord Anubis and Lady Bast. A follower of the path of Egyptian Wicca.

    Reading is Love | Serenity Hutchinson (Online Resume)

  10. #10
    Opinionated Rae'ya's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    2,376
    Gender
    female
    Religion
    Northern Tradition Shaminist Demonolator. Or something along those lines...
    Location
    Adelaide, Australia

    Re: Transgender parents rights

    While I highly disagree with the parental rights stuff, I have to echo Denarius about the 'forced sterilisation' thing. Gender reassignment, by it's very nature, sterilises you. Taking hormones for the gender that you are (as opposed to the one that you were born), reverses the effects of your natural hormones and renders you sterile. Having surgery to remove the gonads and reproductive organs you were born with so that your hormone therapy is less complicated, renders you sterile. The authors daughter, who is receiving hormone blocking therapy to stop her male puberty, is being sterilised by that very treatment. This isn't a human rights violation... it's part of the process of changing genders. EVERYWHERE DOES THIS. A person can't legally change genders without going through certain hormone therapy and surgical procedures that render you sterile. A transperson can't physically match their true gender without losing their fertility. And most transpeople that I know don't WANT their original fertility (though I know there are cases of FTM's who've gotten pregnant prior to testosterone therapy). Transpeople who also suffer from body dysphoria have terrible issues surrounding things like going to the toilet, having sex and menstruating (or not menstruating). Having the wrong gonads is a big issue. Having them removed is a GOOD thing in most cases. And if a couple wants to use their own ova/sperm for future children, most countries allow them to harvest and store prior to starting hormone therapy (though yes, it's expensive).

    Now, where this gets screwy is that it means there's no allowance for third gender people. It means that in Finland, they only recognise binary male-female gender. So what do you do if you're third gender? But Finland isn't the only country that isn't equipped to handle third gender people. Even progressive countries who are changing the laws for transpeople are struggling with accommodating the entire gender spectrum.

    The marriage vs civil union thing... that goes anywhere that gay marriage isn't legal. When you've legally changed genders, your pre-existing marriage becomes a same-sex union. So... yes it's stupid, and yes it should be changed, but it's not actually that unusual in the world at this point in time.

    Here in South Australia, we have some old laws that they've never bothered to change, which make a few things about gender reassignment tricky. Like Finland, you have to have physically transitioned in order to be legally recognised as the opposite gender, which is fine, because after that you can get married, have kids etc etc and no one bats an eyelash. But you can't have a hysterectomy without a 'medical reason', so FTMs have to keep their uterus and ovaries until their doctor finds a way around that silliness. As a couple, you need to be married and one of you needs to be medically infertile to be able to get fertility assistance... ie as a couple with one trans person, you can't have kids until you are married (and you can't get married until you are all the way down the transition process, which takes years and lots of money). This is crazy because a single woman is allowed to get fertility treatment, but that same woman wouldn't be if she was in a defacto relationship with a transman. South Australia isn't anti-trans... it's just that in the process of trying to become pro-trans, it skipped a couple of the fine-print laws, which makes the whole process trickier than it seems.

    Personally, I don't think this is about Finland. I don't even think this is about transpeople. This is about same sex couples. Finland obviously allows gender transition and protects transpeople from discrimination... this is a GOOD thing, because there are countries that don't do either. What it DOESN'T do is allow same sex marriage, or same-sex parenting. And the reality is that when you go through a gender transition and keep your original spouse, you become a same-sex couple. On the flip side of that, when you are in the process of transitioning and you have an opposite gender spouse, you are considered a same-sex couple until the transition is complete. Anywhere you can't be legally married or parent as a same sex couple is going to cause these exact same issues.

    So this isn't about human rights violations for transpeople. It's about the laws not allowing same sex marriage or same-sex parenting.

    It's about legalising a) same sex marriage and b) same sex parenting (currently, most countries who allow same-sex adoption allow one parent and one caregiver, not two parents). When we do that, we not only make life easier and more equitable for people in same-sex relationships, but we make it easier and more equitable for transpeople and for third gender people (because when the rights are the same no matter whether you're male or female, it then becomes easier to be both or somewhere in the middle... not perfect, but easier).
    Last edited by Rae'ya; 19 Jul 2016 at 19:35.

Similar Threads

  1. What exactly are gun rights activist against?
    By Medusa in forum Catacombs
    Replies: 50
    Last Post: 12 Dec 2015, 13:05
  2. I'm transgender!
    By Cobalt26 in forum Catacombs
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 11 Oct 2015, 04:37
  3. Gender rights
    By Medusa in forum Catacombs
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 08 Oct 2015, 13:59
  4. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 17 Jul 2015, 16:01
  5. transgender womans nightmare in Hong Kong
    By loststarshine in forum Catacombs
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 12 Sep 2014, 10:41

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •